Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Books Discussion » Book Club » Questions QS 4 and 5
Author Topic:
PotbellyHairyfoot
Grandpa Moderator
Posts: 2929
Send Message
Avatar
Post Questions QS 4 and 5
on: April 16, 2016 01:58
A two page chapter is too short to cover by itself, so I'm coveringtwo chapters here..

1) Why did Melian decide to stay in Middle-earth rather than in Valinor?

2) What were the reasons for bring the Elves to the Undying Lands? Why was there so little fuss about not gathering them all?




[Edited on 04/16/2016 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Gandolorin
Council Member
Posts: 24040
Send Message
Post
on: April 16, 2016 04:28
1) I almost don't believe I actually found the relevant passage!
"Morgoth's Ring", "The Annals of Aman", second section which deals with the "... new Reckoning in the Light of the Trees."
YT 1050 §40: "At this time also, it is said, Melian, fairest of the Maiar, desiring to look upon the stars, went up upon Taniquetil; and suddenly she desired to see Middle-earth, and she left Valinor and walked in the twilight."

2) Here again I come to my opinion that the Valar as a whole were wimps. Granted, they destroyed Utumno, disabled (but did not destroy) Angband, ... but they were sloppy regarding Angband, and never even tried to cleanse the rest of Middle-earth of Morgoth's scum. They were thus leery of leaving the Elves in such a world which they had very insufficiently cleansed - perhaps one of their rare occasions of realistic thinking. So, not having sufficiently prepared Middle-earth for the Elves to take as their, the Elves', birth-right as the first of the Eruhini, the Valar rather decided to - what other term serves? - lure the Elves to the much smaller Aman, where the Valar could give them much more protection, as they thought.

Except for the fact that they had the utter evil in Valinor itself, in the Halls of Mandos. Which the Valar did not recognize, even Manwë was deceived - but not Tulkas. *sigh*
Image
Elfeawen Lomiondil
Council Member
Posts: 349
Send Message
Post
on: May 08, 2016 03:53
1. Melian decided to stay in Middle Earth because she wanted to be with Elwë. He had once longed to return to the light of Aman that he experienced as one of Oromë's emissaries, but Melian brought that light to Middle Earth, and he then was happy to stay in the land he already loved with her whom he now loved. It was well that they were happy, because it would have been difficult though maybe not impossible to rejoin his people across the sea. By the time Melian and Elwë came out of their trance, most of the Teleri had taken the "second ship" and left Middle Earth. This second chance was given to them because they asked for it, and the Valar's invitation, given in good faith, still stood, but I must assume that moving an entire island for their sake took great effort on Ulmo's part, and could not be readily repeated. Being more happy than not in Beleriand, Melian and Elwë must have accepted that the time had passed for leaving.

2. I already answered this at length in the last chapter thread. Why did the Valar not object more to some Elves staying behind? I wonder if a majority accepted their offer of a new home, and if so, whether it was a large majority?
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Gandolorin
Council Member
Posts: 24040
Send Message
Post
on: May 11, 2016 03:14
Elfeawen Lomiondil said:... Why did the Valar not object more to some Elves staying behind? I wonder if a majority accepted their offer of a new home, and if so, whether it was a large majority?

I would say the Valar had no right (and knew it) to object to some Elves staying behind. They had very incomplete knowledge about the Eruhini from the Music of The Ainur (even Melkor does not appear to have meddled here).

As to how many the Vanyar, the Noldor, and above all the possibly most disparate Elves of all, the Teleri were, JRRT (rightly) does not indulge in numbers nerdiness so beloved of accountants.

One thought that occurs to me is how many of the Elves "awakening" beside Cuiviénen were still there when Oromë discovered those still there, never mind when the three Emissaries Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë came back from Valinor to try and convince their people to relocate West.

First, there is the uncomfortable question of how many Elves had already been captured by Melkor to be transformed to the ancestors of the Orcs (The immortal nature of the Elves makes an artificial selection approach to the matter, i.e. breeding as we know it, very contradictory). The Orcs, created by JRRT as it seems a bit offhandedly as "the infantry of the old war" which could be slaughtered without undue qualms, later made him quite uncomfortable from his own religious point of view.

Then, how many Elves simply wandered away from Cuiviénen before Oromë discovered the rest? How many Elves looked upon him, sensed that he was a being similar to Melkor, and got the Utumno out of there, expecting nothing better from him than what experience or rumor had taught them to fear about Melkor? Maybe under such speculations, it could be better to assume that less, perhaps far less that a majority of the original Elves ever set out on the Great Journey.
Image
Elfeawen Lomiondil
Council Member
Posts: 349
Send Message
Post
on: May 14, 2016 05:18
Seems reasonable. And I didn't get around to saying it, but I totally agree that the Valar would not try to force the Elves to go, so they couldn't complain if their invitation was declined.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Neenime
Council Member
Posts: 1287
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: May 19, 2016 09:00
Now there's a line of fascinating potential spin-offs for fan-fic. The Lost Elves of Cuiviénen. Would they have developed a separate branch of Elven society and perhaps never gotten involved in the wars and struggles of Middle Earth?

As for the Valar's acceptance of Elvish choices, perhaps they took the attitude of accepting Elven free will, as deacribed ( for humans)! In Spenser's Faeirie Queen, namely "sufficient to have stood, but free to fall." As a classic of English lit., it would have made an impression on Tolkien. He seems to allow most of his characters a lot of free will, though there are certainly elements of doom as well.
“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email