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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post QS 6 Of Feanor and the unchaining of Melkor.
on: April 19, 2016 11:55
1) About Miriel- pick one
a)She suffered from a severe case of Post-partum depression for which there was no 'physical' cure.

b)She genuinely passed so much of her energy into Feanor that she was simply unable to regenerate.

2 Feanor- a) Should Finwe have forced him to stay with him, his stepmother and half brothers?

b) When he turned to Mahtan and Melkor for lessons in craftsmanship, was he looking for something to replace what he lacked in his life? What did he actually lack?

Melkor- a) Why wouldn't Manwe listen to the advice of his fellow Valar

b)Why try to ingratiate himself with those he hated most, the Elves?

c)Was Melkor the only Valar able to Lie? That seems to be the one big thing that sets his character apart from them.

d)added later) The Valar that had doubts about Melkor refused to do anything about his reinstatement and simply obeyed Manwe. Could this have been written that way due to the influence of Tolkien's Military service?




[Edited on 04/20/2016 by PotbellyHairyfoot]

[Edited on 04/20/2016 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
ElwingAndEarendil
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on: April 19, 2016 12:24
I'm heading to bed so I'll address just one right now.

2) Feanor:

A) I think it would've done more harm than good to have forced Feanor to remain. I know from experience that forcing someone to try to like another person never really works, and I can only imagine with the age difference between Feanor and his brothers that things would've been worse. Perhaps Finwe should have continued to invite Feanor back to his home, but forcing such a headstrong, powerful elf to remain would've been difficult and potentially dangerous and harmful to all parties' feelings that were involved.

B) I definitely think that Feanor was using his skill in crafting to learn to cope with his grief at the lack of mother figure and the perceived loss of his father with his marriage to Indis. But I believe it went deeper than that. By developing his skills, he found pleasure and probably it was the one thing he felt distinguished him from his half-brothers. Perhaps he wanted something of his own to be proud of.

"Seldom were the hands and mind of Fëanor at rest," it is said. I do not believe this was because of some kind of hubris, which he of course developed because of this down the line, but I think he was trying to find his own niche. He worked hard at what he did, no one can disagree with that. He was skilled yet, but he worked hard.
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Gandolorin
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on: April 20, 2016 04:35
1) About Míriel - b) She was simply unable to regenerate; and, my guess, she knew that Fëanor would always be so - exceedingly immoderate, with little regard for others; you mentioned the term in another post: an extreme narcissist. (edit: oops! Just checked your post in the other thread - you actually wrote dangerous sociopath; not that I would disagree with this description ...)

2 Feanor- a) Should Finwe have forced - Fëanor??? In that sense, Fëanor was an immovable object!

b) ... lessons in craftsmanship ... this is one trait common to pretty much all the Noldor, imo. But again, Fëanor took it to excess, as was his nature. I doubt that he missed his mother - he was the cause for her retreat. What angered him about Finwë marrying and having children again was that he thus had to share his father - and sharing is not something narcissists are good at.

Melkor- a) Why wouldn't Manwe listen to the advice of his fellow Valar? The short (and slightly simplistic) answer: naïveté at this time, not wanting to believe that Melkor would not really repent.

b) Why try to ingratiate himself with those he hated most, the Elves? Put them off their guard, the better to stab them in the back later - figuratively speaking; what Sauron in his guise as Annatar did with Celebrimbor later.

c) Was Melkor the only Valar able to Lie? That seems to be the one big thing that sets his character apart from them. Lying to others - yes. Lying to oneself - here the other Avatar may have been better, at least in the sense of naïveté above. For this, Melkor was very likely too much of a cynic.
With one wishful-thinking exception: That the Valar would be moved (by Eärendil) to come back to Middle-earth, and this time come down on him like a ton of bricks that put even their far earlier attack on Utumno to shame - this possibility never entered his dark, corrupted mind.

[Edited on 04/20/2016 by Gandolorin]
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ElwingAndEarendil
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on: April 20, 2016 06:23
2b)
I doubt that he missed his mother - he was the cause for her retreat.


If we are going off the Silmarillion version, Feanor was a mere child upon his mother's "death." She was weary from giving birth and literally gave up on life. Not exactly the best thing for a mother to do, though I sympathize as someone who has struggled with seeing a purpose in life. I hardly believe that Feanor was happy with his mother's death. That seems uncharacteristic of someone who loved his father more dearly than any other born in Arda: "for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?" Seems uncharacteristic that he wouldn't have felt the same for his mother had she decided to live. Feanor is someone who feels too much all across the board: from greed to anger to love. That's why he was so dangerous. I see parallels between Feanor and say... Anakin Skywalker of Star Wars and Loki of Marvel. Not perfect parallels, of course. Not even close to perfect. But still valid.
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The Lady Idril
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on: April 25, 2016 06:32
Everyone has good ideas here.

I just want to try my hand at the last question--whether Melkor is the only Vala able to lie. I think that would be accurate. It is mentioned that Manwe is incapable of understanding the mind of evil, and since lying is evil, it would make sense that he can not, in principle, understand lying.

However, I don't think it is necessarily the only thing that sets him apart from the Valar. In his later years, Melkor is not even very sneaky about his evil and is pretty straightforwardly a bad guy. So even though he is not lying in those instances, he is still doing terrible things the other Valar would never think to do. (Mild Spoilers ahead) Some examples of this are on display in the story of Hurin and co. (Melkor technically didn't lie...he just tortured that family outright) and the destruction of Gondolin (while it was a sneaky military move, it was not a lie). (End spoilers)

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that Melkor is able to do things the Valar can't; including, but not limited to, lying.

[Edited on 04/25/2016 by The Lady Idril]
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Neenime
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on: April 25, 2016 08:01
Re: 1) - I see the two options as essentially the same. The huge hormonal shifts of pregnancy and the investment of emotional and psychological energy in a new life can be exhausting. The resulting drain is characteristic of post-partum depression. The phenomenon has been known in human culture for eons. Tolkien just expressed it symbolically.

Re: Feanor - seems like a very large personality. I doubt that forcing him to stay would have accomplished anything but stoking his resentment and perhaps would have ended up in rebellion of some sort anyway.

I don't see him as a sociopath - that would have involved a lengthy pattern of charming and then abusing people for his own good,regardless of rules, with no remorse whatsoever. Sorry if I sound pedantic, but years of doing psychological assessments have taught me not to apply a diagnostic label unless the evidence holds up.

He's a bit of a Narcissist perhaps - totally engrossed in his personal search for excellence in craftsmanship, which is a form of power. Later developments (Flight of the Noldor Chap 9) show some rigidity of thinking and grandiosity, I think, but that's another discussion.
“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
Neenime
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on: April 25, 2016 08:06
Re: 1) - I see the two options as essentially the same. The huge hormonal shifts of pregnancy and the investment of emotional and psychological energy in a new life can be exhausting. The resulting drain is characteristic of post-partum depression. The phenomenon has been known in human culture for eons. Tolkien just expressed it symbolically.

Re: Feanor - seems like a very large personality. I doubt that forcing him to stay would have accomplished anything but stoking his resentment and perhaps would have ended up in rebellion of some sort anyway.

I don't see him as a sociopath - that would have involved a lengthy pattern of charming and then abusing people for his own good,regardless of rules, with no remorse whatsoever. Sorry if I sound pedantic, but years of doing psychological assessments have taught me not to apply a diagnostic label unless the evidence holds up.

He's a bit of a Narcissist perhaps - totally engrossed in his personal search for excellence in craftsmanship, which is a form of power. Later developments (Flight of the Noldor Chap 9) show some rigidity of thinking and grandiosity, I think, but that's another discussion.
“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
Gandolorin
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on: April 26, 2016 03:05
ElwingAndEarendil said:2b)
I doubt that he missed his mother - he was the cause for her retreat.


If we are going off the Silmarillion version, Feanor was a mere child upon his mother's "death." She was weary from giving birth and literally gave up on life. Not exactly the best thing for a mother to do, though I sympathize as someone who has struggled with seeing a purpose in life. I hardly believe that Feanor was happy with his mother's death.


My personal impression is that Míriel gave up her Hroa very shortly after giving birth to Fëanor, so he would still have been an infant when he lost her. So at the very least, when I posted "I doubt that he missed his mother" above, I meant to say that he could not have missed her in the same sense as he would have had she retreated in his childhood, youth, or early manhood. He may not have had any chance of bonding with her.

So Fëanor being happy with his mother's death is something I never intended to say in the slightest, a misunderstanding that I hope I have laid to rest.

But another thought which has occurred to me is: would Fëanor have been amenable to a mother's calming influence very much? Marriage is not the same thing, but Nerdanel his wife (daughter of Mahtan, Fëanor's early teacher), stated as being wiser than he was, became estranged from him and did not join the rebellion of the Noldor. Nerdanel learned through experience with her husband Fëanor. Míriel could quite possibly have known this, in whatever fashion, from having given him birth.
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Gandolorin
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on: April 26, 2016 03:33
Neenime said:Re: 1) - I see the two options as essentially the same. The huge hormonal shifts of pregnancy and the investment of emotional and psychological energy in a new life can be exhausting. The resulting drain is characteristic of post-partum depression. The phenomenon has been known in human culture for eons. Tolkien just expressed it symbolically.


I believe he did not just express it symbolically, he used this aspect (in late writing, if I remember correctly) to set the Elves apart from us humans, as in so many other aspects. Male and female Elves were equal in physical abilities up to the point that females Elves first gave birth. This giving birth reduced the females Elves' physical abilities - in some measurable way. Makes me wonder if Nerdanel, whom I mentioned in my above post answering EaE, may have had issues with Fëanor simply from their having seven sons.

Taking this aspect in which Elves are different from us as given (by JRRT), I find it easy to see Fëanor as being once more unique: "... for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanor." Has gone forth into? Or: he took more than was his due? That comes close to the definition of a parasite.
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ElwingAndEarendil
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on: April 26, 2016 04:23
I see your point there now, Gando. Misunderstood you before.

I feel like he might have learned something from a young age from his mother that might have calmed his spirit, but this is speculation of course. Nothing in what I say is to excuse Feanor and his actions, but things might have gone differently if he'd had a mother from the start. His father was "deeply saddened" of course by her death and spent many days by her body in the gardens of Irmo. Perhaps something was lacking in Feanor's childhood because of this.

Also, Feanor reminds me a bit of a spoiled only child. Perhaps if Miriel had been able to have other children, this would not have been the case. Who knows?

As for discussing Feanor more, I will wait for the other thread about Feanor as we move along in the Silm.

EDIT: As for Feanor being like a parasite, I hardly think it fair to call him one. He was a mighty elf, and though he later makes very evil, very poor decisions, he is still an elf and I find it hard to believe Tolkien would've meant for us to see Tolkien as something other than that- a mighty elf that chose evil over good. But Feanor is different to me than, say, Maeglin. Yet still Aredhel loved Maeglin. Why would Miriel have been any different? Why would she have decided to abandon her son because she knew the evils he would commit?

[Edited on 04/26/2016 by ElwingAndEarendil]
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Gandolorin
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on: April 26, 2016 06:33
ElwingAndEarendil said:... Also, Feanor reminds me a bit of a spoiled only child. Perhaps if Miriel had been able to have other children, this would not have been the case. Who knows?
... But Feanor is different to me than, say, Maeglin. Yet still Aredhel loved Maeglin. Why would Miriel have been any different? Why would she have decided to abandon her son because she knew the evils he would commit?

I'm going to stick to my opinion that Fëanor prevented any full siblings by exhausting his mother Míriel, and not just at the moment of birth. She herself said that having more children was out of the question, so I would see that hypothesis as a dead-end.

There are just too many differences in the Finwë - Míriel - Fëanor constellation compared to the Eöl - Aredhel - Maeglin constellation. I started writing about them but gave up.

Fëanor is different from every other Elf in Arda. Aredhel loved Maeglin; yes, but part of Maeglin's evil very likely came from Aredhel herself, and thus perhaps from her Grandfather Finwë. So Aredhel might have (if unconsciously) sympathized with the evil of Maeglin. Fëanor was totally off any scale. So perhaps Míriel sensed (a hypothesis) that the budding evil that she and Finwë had foisted on Arda with Fëanor needed to be counterbalanced by other descendants of Finwë's, descendants of a different wife. Not so far off what "actually" happened in Middle-earth.
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ElwingAndEarendil
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on: April 26, 2016 08:53
Fëanor is different from every other Elf in Arda


I'll give you that one.

Aredhel loved Maeglin; yes, but part of Maeglin's evil very likely came from Aredhel herself, and thus perhaps from her Grandfather Finwë


Where do you see Aredhel as having evil? Are you saying her desire for adventure, for autonomy, to not be constrained by her brother was a root of evil? Because while it might have been stupid to leave Gondolin, I certainly wouldn't call it an evil choice. Just trying to understand. Because of the things she does, she sacrifices herself to save her son, not very evil.

I'm going to stick to my opinion that Fëanor prevented any full siblings by exhausting his mother Míriel, and not just at the moment of birth. She herself said that having more children was out of the question.


If you're asserting this as the case, which I agree with, than your further point of:

So perhaps Míriel sensed (a hypothesis) that the budding evil that she and Finwë had foisted on Arda with Fëanor needed to be counterbalanced by other descendants of Finwë's, descendants of a different wife. Not so far off what "actually" happened in Middle-earth.


Cannot also be true. Contradictions. Either she was able to bear children and live but sensed an evil in Feanor so she died to let Finwe marry someone else. Or she couldn't live and had no choice in the matter so it doesn't really matter what she felt.

but part of Maeglin's evil very likely came from Aredhel herself, and thus perhaps from her Grandfather Finwë


If that is the case, then why would have giving Finwe a second wife help matters? If the evil came from Finwe and not from Miriel, then the evil strain should have and could have continued through Indis' kids. But they didn't. Perhaps because I don't believe evil is born, but made.

[Edited on 04/26/2016 by ElwingAndEarendil]
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ElwingAndEarendil
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on: April 26, 2016 11:04
Let me be clear here: I'm not defending his actions, I'm not saying what he did was in any way shape or form alright. I'm not saying that he demands no repercussions for it either. But we also need to examine the fact that Feanor's case is unique and layered. It is multi-leveled. There are layers of pain, grief, anger, resentment, along with greed, hubris, etc. He is not evil like Sauron or Morgoth. He is damaged, and like a damaged animal, he attacked when cornered.
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Gandolorin
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on: April 29, 2016 06:40
I may start sounding like a lawyer, a profession (especially in its Anglo-Saxon incarnation, but by no means solely) about which I have a very jaundiced view; I'm hoping that I'm just applying logic rigorously.

Míriel herself said that having more children was out of the question. But that did not mean that she needed to give up her Hroa - though the exhaustion she felt in bearing and giving birth to Fëanor may have been so unprecedented that it was sufficient for her decision. But just for the sake of argument, she could have stuck around to raise her son, this utterly unique Elf of all time, together with her husband Finwë.

This is why I speculate that she may have felt that there needed to be a counterbalance to Fëanor. Speaking genetically, both she and Finwë may have had recessive "evil" genes (with "evil" I here also mean rashness, immoderation, arrogance, and perhaps a certain tendency towards insanity), but with both of them having them, the normally recessive trait was expressed (like the bit about a child having blue eyes). But a counterbalance to Fëanor would need some massively "good" genes, while still having some of Finwë's other genes. Finwë needed to marry and have children with someone else; Elves did not divorce; Elves also did not normally become widows or widowers, at least not at this time, and certainly not in Valinor; time for some desperate, unusual measures.
And then Finwë "took as his second wife Indis (of the Vanyar royal line)." The genetically most powerful antidote to those "evil" genes. But this still did not eliminate those recessive "evil" genes, which then expressed themselves in various ways in Fingon, or Turgon, or Aredhel, or the Children of Finarfin.

I agree with you on your point that evil is made, at least to a - perhaps much - larger degree than it is inherited. We may never know any percentages of the "exactness" that politicians are so fond (occasionally desperate) of quoting. But that is our "real world." I believe that JRRT would have been sympathetic to a more deterministic view of inheritance in his sub-created world, if not necessarily expressing it in terms of genetics (which were far less developed in his time than in ours) - actually JRRT would most likely have rather couched it in terms of fate, doom, wyrd and such, rather than even in deterministic terms. And never mind such concepts as the bit about Melkor and the Children of Hurin ...

[Edited on 04/30/2016 by Gandolorin]
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Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: May 10, 2016 05:00
So much to think about here. I'll answer in installments.

1. Why did Miriel die? I choose b.
She gave too much of her life force to Fëanor, and did not retain enough for herself. “But in the bearing of her son Miriel was consumed in spirit and body . . .” She tells her husband that she has no strength to bear any more children, “for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanor.” (54-55) Drained, she was unable to desire anything except rest and renewal, and so her spirit departed her body for the Halls of Mandos.

2. It probably would have been good for Fëanor to stay with his expanded family, maybe get over his grudge against them. But rarely does anything good come of forcing someone to do something. And no one could make Fëanor do anything anyway! Nerdanel could sometimes talk him into changing his mind, but trying to coerce him only made him dig in his heels.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: May 14, 2016 05:31
C. Was lying unique to Morgoth? Seems possible. If the other Valar could lie, I can think of no instance when they did.

D. Why did the other Valar defer to Morgoth? I think this explains their outlook:
"for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel."

In their view, strife among the Valar was more terrible than risking that Manwe was wrong.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: May 15, 2016 07:54
Did Fëanor devote himself to smithcraft to make up for something he was missing? Well, he was missing something: his mother. I imagine his uniqueness made it difficult for other people to relate to him, and that could have gone both ways. But I think he would have been an eager student anyway. Surely you can think of something you like to do, or even an obsession you like to feed, and the satisfaction it gives you to pursue it with all your energy. For me, it is like an inner fire that grows stronger and brighter if I feed it, but makes me feel sick if I don’t.

Why did Manwë give Morgoth a second chance? This question is answered to my satisfaction here: “For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it . . .”
I think we humans understand Morgoth better than the noble pure-hearted Valar. I also think that Manwë believed he had special insight into the heart of Melkor because, as the passage goes on to say, they had been “brothers” in the mind of Iluvatar. Probably the other Valar were prompted to defer to Manwë’s judgement for the same reason, even those who doubted it. Good people, seeing only good, can be mistaken. Pureness of heart is a good thing to have in a ruler, but it doesn’t neccesarily accompany wisdom, I guess. I think Manwë was motivated to give his fallen brother another chance by the desire to see good overcome evil, the hope that Melkor had repented and would aid in the healing of the hurts he had caused. How differently the history of the world would have been if he had been right! I can not fault Manwë. I can fault the Valar for not communicating with each other better, for not sharing to a greater degree the most grave decisions, for not being yet more cautious, given the stakes.

Why did Morgoth try to befriend the Elves? He sought ever to mar whatever was new and fair. He especially hated the Elves because they were what motivated the Valar to take action against him. But if he moved openly against the Elves, he would lose everything. Sometimes the evils that are openly evil are less of a threat than those that cloak their true nature. Think of Darth Sidious in Star Wars. Morgoth laid the groundwork for all manner of suffering by trying to subvert what he hated to his cause. The villains that can master their passions to serve cunning are the most dangerous.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Gandolorin
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on: May 15, 2016 10:10
Again, I find this blindness towards comprehending evil so utterly in opposition to what is a basic tenet of LoTR: here, Sauron could only comprehend evil, assume that someone would seize the One Ring to use it against himself, and was blind to the possibility that someone, anyone, would not take this path of evil, but rather try the (admittedly practically suicidal) path of getting to Orodruin to destroy the One Ring there.

As if, by this time of the end of the Third Age, seven of the nine of the Fellowship were wiser than Manwë back then (excluding Boromir until just before his death, and Sam, who just wanted to accompany Frodo until they got this wearisome job done, the actual job taking a backseat to his sticking by Frodo no matter what).

[Edited on 05/16/2016 by Gandolorin]
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Neenime
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on: May 15, 2016 09:54
Just going to inject another factor in this discussion. Tolkien, as a Cathilic, would have been imbued with the idea that humans were born with Original Sin- a tendency to be weak and do bad things. Protestant teachings ( with some variation depending on the sect) tend to emphasize redemption by God's powers, whereas Catholic teachings put more emphasis on our responsibility post-baptism to choose to do good, in order to gain heaven.

I wonder if the latter, operating consciously and unconsciously for Tolkien, might have influenced the development of characters such as Manwë and other Valar to give second chances and believe in the possibility of Melkor choosing good, if given the opportunity.
“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: May 19, 2016 05:19
Again, I find this blindness towards comprehending evil so utterly in opposition to what is a basic tenet of LoTR: here, Sauron could only comprehend evil, assume that someone would seize the One Ring to use it against himself, and was blind to the possibility that someone, anyone, would not take this path of evil, but rather try the (admittedly practically suicidal) path of getting to Orodruin to destroy the One Ring there.


Sauron could only comprehend evil. Manwë could only comprehend good. The ideas seem complementary? And yes, I think a member of the Fellowship who is capable of both good and evil could understand Morgoth better.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
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