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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post QS 6 Chapter quote
on: April 25, 2016 09:44
In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which Feanor was the leader, many saw the effect of the breach within the house of Finwe, judging that if Finwe had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son...


I thought that blaming the parents was a more recent thing. So Finwe should have spent eternity without a partner just to satisfy his son?

Finwe faced a unique, at that time, problem as his wife had passed on o Mandos and left him as a single dad. Feanor should have supported his father. Instead Feanor became upset at his new stepmother and half brothers sharing his father's attention.

[Edited on 04/26/2016 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
BelleBayard
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on: April 25, 2016 10:27
I'm guessing that it indicated Finwe didn't know how to deal with the loss. And no grief support groups back then. In today's society, we grieve with parents over the loss of their children and it's not to say parents didn't in the past, but it was far too common and hence, large families. One could hope all your children would survive, but accidents, illness, and stillborns were not uncommon. Loss of mother and babe at birth were also not uncommon. For Elves, who were not so prolific and were basically immortal unless some accident occurred (or they wasted away from grief), death of a child or partner had to be pretty cataclysmic. I find it rather interesting that Finwe was able to find another wife as Tolkien seemed adamant that Elves had a "one true one" only and that was it. Feanor had issues, as we all know... Jealousy that his father was able to find another partner seems to have been one of them. Unfortunate, but again, this is a story filled with passions in a people who often appeared as passionless. Feanor and his sons were anything BUT that. I'm supposing that because life moved so much more slowly than in Man, Elves may have seemed to react little to things around them, while in reality they felt just as much, just perhaps not as obviously. Just rattling on here this morning.
Gandolorin
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on: April 26, 2016 04:06
Finwë marries again, so Fëanor then has two half-brothers, and so we have the whole mess of the Silmarillion etc.

Whoa!

An Elf King in Valinor marries again! Well, in (the last two) millennia of our (western) human history, marrying again was officially reserved to widows and widowers.

Whoa!

An Elf King in Valinor is a widower!

Whoa!

An Elf Queen in Valinor has given up her Hroa, only possible from violence (not the case here) or grief.

Whoa!

An Elf Queen in Valinor has given up her Hroa from grief.

Whoa!

An Elf Queen in Valinor has given up her Hroa from the grief of bearing a "mighty son."

Maybe she knew something about how this "mighty son" would develop, and why. Maybe she knew that THIS line of descent was doomed to self-inflicted destruction. Maybe she even knew that an infusion of Vanyar blood into the line of Finwë was the only antidote (in the run of the millennia) to this terrible monster she and Finwë had begotten. Maybe.
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ElwingAndEarendil
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on: April 26, 2016 04:48
Maybe she knew something about how this "mighty son" would develop, and why. Maybe she knew that THIS line of descent was doomed to self-inflicted destruction. Maybe she even knew that an infusion of Vanyar blood into the line of Finwë was the only antidote (in the run of the millennia) to this terrible monster she and Finwë had begotten. Maybe.


If that is the case, then why did Aredhel not feel the same for Maeglin? I find it hard to believe (as I think I mentioned in the other thread), that Miriel would've given up on Feanor at first glance. I will grant you that maybe it was all part of a grander plan by Eru, but by Miriel because she was so worried about her son that instead of trying to solve the problem by living, she was willing to give up her life which may or may not have caused it all in the first place? I don't buy it.


As for the first question, I find it drastically oversimplified and unfairly so. Feanor was used to having his father to himself. They had come to love each other very deeply over the years because they only had each other. Of course Feanor would feel jealous that his father wanted to bear more children! It's only natural. I'm not saying Finwe shouldn't have remarried- there's no way to know how that would've changed things and I'm too big a fan of Fingon.

But to blame Feanor like this: "Instead he became upset at his new stepmother and half brothers sharing his father's attention," as you put it. That's a very childish way to put it. He was deeply hurt. Feanor is an elf of passion, as BelleBayard put it above. He feels everything deeply, hurt, love, jealousy. Everything.
"The Deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song..." - Haunting the Realm of Vaire as the Corrupted Major - Find me as Silmarilz1701 everywhere else
Gandolorin
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on: April 26, 2016 06:59
ElwingAndEarendil said:... Feanor is an elf of passion, as BelleBayard put it above. He feels everything deeply, hurt, love, jealousy. Everything.

Passion that knows no limits. Passion that is nihilistic, destructive without remorse. We've seen his kind of passion in the 20th century to the tune of maybe 100 million or more dead caused by just three murderous criminals. The one Balrog I can sympathize with for a couple of nanoseconds is Gothmog when he rids Arda of the pestilence of Fëanor.
For me, the sequence of the most destructive entities of Arda runs Melkor - Fëanor - Sauron. Sauron was nowhere as nihilistic as Fëanor.
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ElwingAndEarendil
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on: April 26, 2016 08:39
See there I disagree with you. Feanor's kinslaying was inexcusable, obviously. It was horrendous. Yes, he should've controlled himself- obviously. Anyone can see that. But also he was a deeply damaged individual who while his actions were evil, I do not believe was evil himself. Morgoth was evil. Sauron was evil. They desired to rule over everything and destroy everything in their paths. They desired to destroy all things good and they were calm and calculated in how they executed that.

Feanor acted out of anger, out of grief. He used the grief that he held for his father's death and decided to pursue the murderer and thief. He couldn't reclaim his father, but he could reclaim his Silmarils which were precious to him also.

I think he was more insane than evil.
"The Deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song..." - Haunting the Realm of Vaire as the Corrupted Major - Find me as Silmarilz1701 everywhere else
Gandolorin
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on: April 29, 2016 05:05
ElwingAndEarendil said:... He couldn't reclaim his father, but he could reclaim his Silmarils which were precious to him also.

I think he was more insane than evil.

I confess I have trouble commenting on The Sil as if I had just read chapter 6 for the first time. But what contradicts your statement about reclaiming his Silmarils is to be found in chapter 13 (somehow fitting! ) "Of the Return of the Noldor."

I agree that Fëanor's grip on sanity became more and more tenuous. But the quote I mean in ch. 13 really damns him (actually he damns himself). That train of thought of his, in the circumstances, is absolutely chilling. And then, insanity combined with power, or influence, can have consequences as horrible as pure, cold evil.

And as far as cold, calm and calculated evil is concerned, IMO that fits Sauron much better than Melkor. Melkor was a raging nihilist, who only submitted to his captivity by the Valar because his (personal) power simply was not sufficient to oppose them, especially Tulkas. I cannot imagine him "surrendering" in a situation similar to Sauron's when the latter faced Ar-Pharazôn, a "surrender" to an opponent who could not harm him in the slightest, out of guile.

[Edited on 04/30/2016 by Gandolorin]
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Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: May 14, 2016 05:22
My thoughts about Fëanor and Miriel's relationship.

An Elf Queen in Valinor has given up her Hroa from the grief of bearing a "mighty son."


It never says she dies from grief. It says that she gave away so much of her own strength that she was too weary to continue living. Her grief comes from leaving her husband and newborn son. Intellectually, she knows that it is tragic she must leave them, but she is too drained even to express the emotion. Finwë laments that she must leave her child at such a time (he still doesn't realize she is dying), and she answers "It is indeed unhappy," said Miriel, "and I would weep, if I were not so weary."

My conclusion: Miriel loved Fëanor and was sad to leave him.

this terrible monster she and Finwë had begotten


Next point is the name she gave her son. It was the custom among the Eldar for each parent to give their child a name. The mother, who naturally possessed more insight into who her child would become, would usually bestow a name reflecting something about their character even before that character developed.

The book says so little about what Miriel thought of her son, but she was the one who named him "Spirit of Fire," and that may tell us something. She did not name him "Terrible Monster," "Morgoth," or "Destroying Flame." The name she gave him is extremely fitting. "Fëanor grew swiftly as if a secret fire were kindled within him." (Emphasis mine) And, well, there are other examples I can't bring up without spoiling. But the name is ambiguous, neither strongly negative or positive. What does fire symbolize? Fire consumes and destroys, but it also transforms and creates. It is a powerful symbol. Iluvatar uses "Secret Fire" to create the universe. It may be that Miriel recognized the danger that came with Fëanor's fiery spirit but hoped that its potential would manifest for good. And her son was indeed a creator as well as a destroyer. "He became of all the Noldor, then or after, the most subtle in mind and skilled in hand." If Morgoth had killed him in his youth, Fëanor would be remembered as one of the greatest Elves who ever lived.

Maybe she knew something about how this "mighty son" would develop, and why. Maybe she knew that THIS line of descent was doomed to self-inflicted destruction. Maybe she even knew that an infusion of Vanyar blood into the line of Finwë was the only antidote


If Miriel could see the future so well, why would she “know” all this now instead of before Fëanor was born. Also, why would she not warn Finwë or ask him to marry Indis. I CAN see Miriel, worried about her son growing up motherless, asking her husband to remarry. I can NOT see her deliberately dying to remove herself, when her death is likely the foundation of Fëanor's problems.

I'm guessing this passage was the one that put you on this line of reasoning?

"But hold me blameless in this, and all that may come after." (Miriel to Finwë, shortly before her death.)

I simply cannot agree with your interpretation, however. First off, I do not see Miriel's death as her choice. As far as I can understand, healing was impossible for her.

Secondly, I read her words "But hold me blameless in this" as asking her husband's forgiveness for tragically leaving him. She could be using her mother's insight when she adds "and all that may come after," and I can see how you might interpret this as her foreseeing Fëanor's dark future, but it would take no great insight to predict the hardships of single parenting, and I think the simpler explanation is far more likely.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Gandolorin
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on: May 15, 2016 06:12
Elfeawen Lomiondil said:... If Miriel could see the future so well, why would she “know” all this now instead of before Fëanor was born...

I'll admit my speculation about what Míriel might have foreseen about Fëanor's future (at least in general terms, that he would do and speak evil) after she had given birth to him may be a bit on the wild side - and never mind Finwë's marriage with Indis and their having children as an "antidote" to Fëanor. Image

But her having been able to anticipate all this even before Fëanor's conception would put her foresight on this matter way beyond that of all the Valar, on a par with Eru! Even my imagination balks at such an anticipation!

To put it shortly and a bit flippantly: Fëanor's birth led to an "OOPS!" reaction ...
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Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: May 15, 2016 08:06
Alright, fair enough. If all hypotheses were equal, well, there are some things I choose to believe that are neither contradicted nor supported by the evidence . . .
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Neenime
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on: May 19, 2016 08:50
Elfeawn Lomiondil - interesting point about Miriel's naming of their son and the comment about being held blameless. Perhaps intuition was at work. That makes moresense to me than the idea of foresight. If it had been the latter, I think she would have been more emphatic in leaving instructions with Finwë about how to manage Fëanor, before she expired.

I also disagree with categorizing Fëanor with Sauron and Melkor, for the same reason. I believe that his intention was quite different from that of Melkor and his protégé. Blind rage and the urge for revenge are often temorary states, though occasionally they can last a long time ( I think of some ethnic and political groups here, but they have multiple individuals to keep stoking the fire. ) Fëanor's destructiveness was, I believe, mitigated by his capacity for creativity. I may end up reassessing that as I keep reading. We shall see.
“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
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