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Nerdmeister
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Post Ar Amilen
on: May 07, 2016 02:01
Hey there.

With mother´s day upon us, I have been working on a few lines in quenya for my own mother and want to run them past here and see if it is comprehensible enough to be considered "good" quenya (or maybe just passable quenya )

This is what I have arrived at thus far, mucking about with positionings of the words, rephrasings and such.

Sinë pityë lotti nar len se Ar Amilen, amilyë.
Illumë aháriemmë alassë sívenen elyëo.
Neldë yondolyallon.

Note: Ar Amilen is inspired by such terms as Ar Manwen (Manwë´s day), which, as far as I could tell, are inflicted for dative (= Day for Manwë?)
dirk_math
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on: May 07, 2016 03:19
Ar Amilen is Qenya, this is an old version of Quenya that is not recommended to modern Neo-Quenya writers. In modern Quenya it would be Árë Amillo with a genitive (-n was the Qenya genitive ending) and a stem form amill-.

By lotti I assume you mean flowers? In that case the correct plural would be lóti.

Se is the pronoun "he, she, it", using it as a preposition is again Qenya. If you want to say "on mother's day" that would be: Áressë Amillo (with the locative ending -ssë).

-lyë is a verbal ending meaning "you", e.g. quetilyë = you speak. The possessive ending (used with nouns) is -lya. But as I think it is about your mother when you say those lines to her it would have to be "my mother"? I.e. amillinya.

The 2nd line, this is what I make of it: always we two have sat down joy with your peace?
With your peace would be: sívelyanen.
But the use of the word alassë in this context is rather strange. Do you mean "with joy"?

The 3rd line: From your 3 sons.
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
Nerdmeister
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on: May 07, 2016 04:00
Some of these words I have gotten from the Elvish Dictionary (ED) by Ambar Eldaron, which "is intended to be a practical tool for the study of (neo-) Quenya". I also use Helge Fauskanger´s dictionary to supplement but have not in this instance.
My own translation and thoughts on this are:

I have Amil for mother with no stem-form attached, which took me a bit by surprise, I´ll admit. From where do you have the stem amill-?

Ar Manwen is what is listed as "Day of Manwë" in my (ED); I do recall something like -n being an older genitive and I can indeed see the case for Árë Amil(l)o as áre means day. I have "ar" listed as "day" as well as "and" and would probably opt for "áre" if not for the "Ar Manwen" example, I am saddled with. If "Ar Manwen" would still be in use by convention (because it has always been so or something to that effect) then Ar Amilen / Ar Amillen sounds to me like a logical extrapolation.

Lottë (ED) - flower usually smaller
I am aware of "lótë" for flower but that is refered to as "large flower" so in this instance I discarded it

Se (ED) - at, in
I know this has also the meaning of the 3rd person though in this case I wanted to have "mother´s day" (Ar Amilen / Árë Amillo) to stand on its own and opted for another solution. "Se" does appear to be related to the locative -ssë.

Amilyë (ED) - mummy
A much more familiar address, which seems appropiate to me, given the circumstance.

Sívë (ED) - knowing
This is what my (ED) is saying. For "peace" it has "sérë" which I incidentally also had before obtaining my (ED)

My own full translastion:
"These small flowers are for you on Mother´s Day, mummy.
Always we have had (possesed) joy by the knowing of you.
From your three sons"

I have "ham-" for "sit" ("hamma" for "chair" seems quite related".
In this instance the verb is "harya" -> perfect "ahárië" -> 1st prs pl -mmë giving "aháriemmë"


[Edited on 05/08/2016 by Nerdmeister]

[Edited on 05/08/2016 by Nerdmeister]
Nerdmeister
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on: May 07, 2016 07:04
Having thought about it a bit, I think I would rather do the 2nd sentence thusly:

Illumë aháriemmë alassë sívenen elyë.

Dropping the genitive from elyë and should produce "...by knowing you" instead of "...by the knowing of you" Seems to me it could be translated as being my mother´s knowledge that brings me joy.

Still all perspectives and insights are appreciated.
Nerdmeister
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on: May 07, 2016 10:05
Well some further digging into the "mother´s day" translation has seen me leaning closer to "Árë Amillo".
I did indeed find some hints in my own material suggesting that "amill- is ´probably´ the stem" and as this just sits a bit better with me anyway I´ll go with it. Two independant sources (dirk_maths response and Helge Fauskangers dictionary) plus my own gut feeling is enough for me.
Also -o instead of -en as my Ar Manwen, Ar Ulmo etc are apparently days of the week and might still be spelled like this (citation needed) mother´s day is a newer creation and a day all its own, that might do away with older conventions (well that argument is good enough for me anyway ).
Ar / Árë is still a bit in the air for me, but I´m leaning more towards Árë now for the same reasons that -o is prefered to -en.
dirk_math
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on: May 08, 2016 03:50
Ok, harya in the perfect tense is indistinguishable from har- (har- and ham- both mean "sit" ). And then joy would of course be its direct object.
But in that case I would prefer an ordinary past tense as the perfect tense describes something that has finished in the past but still has its influence in the present (unless the joy is in the past, but I assume your mum is still alive).

And amilyë is indeed possible as endearing term.

Fauskanger prefers to use sívë only in the meaning 'peace' and istya in the meaning 'knowledge'.
But here you clearly mean the gerund of the verb 'to know': istië (the correct formulation is 'the joy of knowing you'). And 'of knowing you' would then be istiéo elyë (the gerund is in the genitive case, but elyë is in the nominative as it is the direct object of the gerund).

And I would avoid Ar as it can easily be confused with the conjunction 'and'.


[Edited on 05/08/2016 by dirk_math]
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
Nerdmeister
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on: May 08, 2016 04:45
I did indeed opt for "áre" over "ar", for the reasons given above and I have not previously considered using "ar" but for the expressions for the elven weekdays "Ar Manwen" etc.

As for "sívë", I did originally think of the word "ista" (knowledge) but thought that "knowing" would be a better option of which I found "sívë". Having searched for your option I have arrived at "istya" as an alternative as well and would have prefered it, for its closeness to "ista", had I been aware of it earlier.
It is btw from Fauskanger´s course that I have "sérë" for peace. Having now read up on HF´s dictionary I see he has 3 definitions on the word "sívë" (here shortened):
1) as, like. Of something close
2) peace
3) knowing - though istya is prefered here (as you pointed out)

In regard to the perfect tense it is paired up with "illumë" (always), so I rather think of it as something that always has been and always shall be. If I am alone in that assessment I shall of course reconsider my position but this is how it was intended.

She has already received it. The meaning should still be understandable. Should I do it again I´d probably do it thusly:

Sinë pityë lotti nar len se Árë Amillo, amilyë.
Illumë aháriemmë alassë istienen elyë.
Neldë yondolyallon.

These small flowers are for you on Mother´s Day, mummy.
Always we have had (possessed) joy by knowing you.
From your three sons.

"Knowing" changed to "istië" (gerund of ista/istya) but keeping the instrumental, as it is through the "knowing" that we have "possessed joy". I can see your case for using the genitive in this instance though. Maybe it is merely a matter of preference / taste in this instance.

EDIT: istyanen changed to istienen due to a misunderstanding that istya meant "knowing". Making it into a gerund should amend this.

[Edited on 05/08/2016 by Nerdmeister]
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