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DarkLord153
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Post Sauron is weak?
on: April 19, 2017 10:25
In the Battle of the Last Alliance, Isildur cuts the finger of Sauron that held the Ring and he is immediately defeated... Why is he so weak? Could someone defeat Sauron by simply taking the Ring off his finger?
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Gandolorin
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on: April 21, 2017 11:09
We're in the movies discussion here, DarkLord. In the books, JRRT kept this probably very difficult scene very much in the background, Yes, Gil-galad is the last of the Noldorin Kings in Middle-earth, and he held the Elven Ring Vilya, at least at one time considered the mightiest of the Three (but none of then were really considered to be weapons - perhaps it protected him defensively), which was held by Elrond after Gil-galad's bodily demise. And his spear Aiglos or Aeglos is said to be an extremely fearsome weapon (but created by whom?). Elendil, wielding his also apparently very fearsome sword Narsil (forged by whom?), highest surviving royal noble of Númenor, apparently must have dealt Sauron, together with Gil-galad, some serious wounds - though both died in that fight.

This is not entirely without precedent, to the contrary: Fingolfin, the older of Fëanor's two younger half-brothers, and Grandfather of Gil-galad via Fingon (Turgon of Gondolin's older brother), rode alone to Angband alone after the Battle of Sudden Flame (Dagor Bragollach), and challenged Morgoth to single combat, a challenge which Morgoth, as per the published Silmarillion "took not willingly." To continue with the Sil: "... and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish ... Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot [of Morgoth] with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking ... Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed ..."

Morgoth. Scarred, permanently wounded and crippled. Sauron's VERY big boss.

So if even the once greatest of the Valar could be seriously injured in his incarnate form, Sauron the "mere" Maia could certainly suffer serious physical damage when attacked by Fingolfin's grandson, and Isildur was descended in the 30th generation or so from Fingolfin, and both probably had weapons of similar damage potential as Fingolfin.

Too much stuff to pack into a scene like that which PJ did in FoTR the movie. If I remember correctly, Isildur with his desperate swing with the last bit of blade still attached to Narsil's hilt slashed of ALL of Sauron's fingers off, leaving only the thumb. Not as per the book. Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's one finger bearing the Ring. There is the bit about Frodo post destruction of the Ring by Sméagol, having lost a finger, was in that sense similar to Sauron, who also only had nine total fingers left - seems his "re-incarnation" could not heal all damages. But then, PJ has Sauron as a huge eye atop Thangorodrim - what need for fingers there? Oh well ...
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DarkLord153
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on: April 21, 2017 02:49
Dammit, I got it in the wrong thread.... Well,we might be able to wait till a mod gets it up to discuss the books. Now, in which book of the three does it contain the battle of the last alliance? It might have been the first book,which I've already read,and im nearly done to the second... But if it's on the third,i have some time to go before i learn those things from the side of the books.
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Lord_Sauron
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on: April 21, 2017 05:30
I think it's in the appendices located at the back of The Return of the King.
Also if I recall correctly Sauron wrestled both Elendil and Gil-Galad at the same time(I could be wrong). It also doesn't mention if Sauron had a weapon or not. On another note the siege of Barad-dûr lasted seven Years. As I see it Sauron was regrouping from his injuries from both Elendil and Gil-Galad when Isildur ran up and cut Sauron's finger off.
tarcolan
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on: April 24, 2017 12:49
OK let's try this again. As requested I will now move this thread to the Books Forum.... Hooray it worked!

The Last Alliance is mentioned a few times in the story and in the Appendices but it is only really explained at the Council of Elrond.
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Elthir
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on: April 26, 2017 09:49
If I recall correctly, the references here are fairly brief and leave a bit of room for interpretation. My favorite description is actually from a letter to Milton Waldman [letter 131]:

"Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Eldendil's son, cuts the ring from Sauron's hand and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the shadows."

JRRT letter 131


My personal opinion about this is that Gil-galad and Elendil both fought Sauron at the last, and all three were slain -- Sauron's spirit, however, remained in his body, unwilling to depart until Isildur cut the ring from his hand. Others have different interpretations, and this is not the only description; but since none of them go into great detail, I think this idea works well enough even when considering other quotes.

And Gandolorin is correct, it's Aiglos or Aeglos, but if you want the technically correct spelling, it's Aeglos.

[Edited on 04/27/2017 by Elthir]
Elthir
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on: April 26, 2017 10:01
Gandolorin said: (...) Elendil, wielding his also apparently very fearsome sword Narsil (forged by whom?)...


Telchar.
Gandolorin
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on: April 27, 2017 04:17
Elthir said:
Gandolorin said: (...) Elendil, wielding his also apparently very fearsome sword Narsil (forged by whom?)...


Telchar.

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