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GreenhillFox
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Post Samwise Gamgee’s birthdate
on: July 06, 2017 11:07
There’s a small change between the 2 last versions of LotR that is nagging on my mind.

I have got both the 1994 and 2004 editions here. I noticed that in the last version Sam’s birthdate is mentioned as 2980 whereas in the previous version it was 2983.

I have no idea what may have caused this. For either year, Sam would have been old enough to accompany Frodo in 3018.

Does anyone know what may have caused this “correction”…? Maybe the later birth year caused an inconsistency I’m not aware of.

Silly, how such small things can keep one’s mind busy
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Gandolorin
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on: July 07, 2017 12:12
That’s odd, GreenhillFox. My 1986 paperback reprint of Robert Foster’s 1978 “Complete Guide to Middle-earth” has 1380 SR, as does my 2001 German lexicon by Fiedhelm Schneidewind and J.E.A. Tyler’s 1976 ff “The Complete Tolkien Companion”. The Family tree in Appendix C of my 2002 HarperCollins hardcover LoTR, agrees, and more to the point, so does my 1983 Unwin Paperbacks reprint of the 1981 fourth edition. So my guess is that the 1994 edition (by which publisher?) had a glitch in it …
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NenyaGold
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on: July 07, 2017 09:46
The Encyclopedia of Arda says Sam was "likely" born on April 6, 2980, which is the same as 1380.

Here is Arda's timeline.

CoE's encyclopedia says he was born in 2983, as does my paperback box set, on which I am unable to find a print date but it was gifted to me in 2004.

Unfortunately, CoE's timeline only goes to 2953...

Interesting...



"He had a ring, a golden ring, a precious ring." ~ from The Hobbit
GreenhillFox
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on: July 07, 2017 09:42
I should have been more precise with my edition references (and made a mistake in them too, my apologies):

    The version which mentions the birth year 2983 is published by Harper Collins in 1997, while mentioning: “This edition is based on the reset edition first published 1994”

    The version which mentions the birth year 2980 is published by Harper Collins in 2005, while mentioning: “This edition is based on the reset edition first published 2002, which is a revised version of the reset edition first published 1994


As said earlier I was assuming that this was needed to solve an unknown inconsistency. But I think that Gandolorin may well be right to suspect a typo. Let me just quote the text in the first edition I mentioned:

2980 Aragorn enters Lórien, and there meets again Arwen Undómiel. Aragorn gives her the ring of Barahir, and they plight their troth upon the hill of Cerin Amroth. About this time Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor and becomes acquainted with Shelob. Théoden becomes King of Rohan.
2983 Faramir son of Denethor born. Birth of Samwise.

In the second edition I mentioned, the text “Birth of Samwise” moved up 1 line (and thus the birth date becomes 2980). That has the looks of a possible typo indeed.

Once this happens, literature sources may be quick to pick up the error and “propagate” it, like e.g. what NenyaGold is mentioning (what is CoE’s encyclopedia?).

[Edited on 07/08/2017 by GreenhillFox]

[Edited on 07/08/2017 by GreenhillFox]
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Gandolorin
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on: July 07, 2017 11:03
GreenhillFox said:... (what is CoE’s encyclopedia?).

At the very top of the site page there's a menu point "Elrond's Library" which has s sub-point "Encyclopedia".

But since your above quotes for 2980 and 2983 TA are from Appendix B, I just checked my two versions of RoTK ... and experienced a meltdown!!! Both of them have "2983 Faramir son of Denethor born. Birth of Samwise."

*shriek* *headbang*

So in both of my books, the entry in the annals of Appendix B contradicts the entry in Appendix C in the family tree "The Longfather-tree of Master Samwise" ...
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GreenhillFox
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on: July 08, 2017 05:31
This contradiction is also there in my first edition (I had not noticed the entry in that family tree); this correction was probably done to solve the contradiction between appendix B and C.
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tarcolan
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on: July 08, 2017 11:49
Later events section has this:
1469: Master Samwise becomes Mayor for the seventh and last time, being in 1476, at the end of his office, ninety six years old.
This is from the Collins Modern Classics version dated 2001, and has the SR1380 date in the tree as well. However the timeline date is TA2983.

It looks like the 2983 date is a typo. The etext version by Harper Collins has the date of birth as TA2980. It is based on the 2004 reset edition, which is probably based on the 2002 one. The Tolkien wiki has 2980, as does Tolkien Gateway with this added note:
In the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, Sam's year of birth was added to The Tale of Years; it was, however, T.A. 2983. This contradicts both the Longfather Tree of Master Samwise and a later entry in The Tale of Years. The incorrect date has been corrected in the 50th anniversary edition. See also The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, p. 716.
We need to correct our encyclopedia.
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NenyaGold
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on: July 09, 2017 12:22
Yes, it seems that CoE and some of our books are wrong. These sites lotrproject.com, lotr.wikia.com, ageofthering.com, tolkiengateway.net, henneth-annun.net, and middle-earthencyclopedia.weebly.com all show 2380/1380 as Sam's birth year.

I'm curious what my 1969 well-worn paperbacks show, but they are tucked away in a box in the garage rafters...

"He had a ring, a golden ring, a precious ring." ~ from The Hobbit
Gandolorin
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on: July 09, 2017 06:15
“See also The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, p. 716.”
Did exactly that.
In Appendix C “The Longfather-tree of Master Samwise" the entry has been SR 1380 (TA 2980) from the first edition with appendices (which were still missing in the first printing of RoTK in 1955).
The entry “Birth of Samwise” in 2983 was only added to the Appendix B annals in the second edition of 1965. That was the - probably hasty - rewriting of parts of LoTR to get copyright matters straightened out after the Ace Books pirate paperback edition. The correction was apparently made in the 2004 edition, and no, that cannot be based on the 2002 HarperCollins (hardback) edition, because that is exactly the one I own – with the wrong 2983 entry in Appendix B.
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