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DarkLord153
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Post Grima and Saruman
on: August 04, 2017 11:29
What would eventually happen if Grima never killed Saruman?
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Gandolorin
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on: August 05, 2017 02:10
Added note: wouldn't this thread fit better into the book sub-forum? The Gríma-killing-Saruman episode was only in an EE of the movies, and in Isengard, no less, so totally out of line with the book version placing it in the Shire far later, very near the end of the story.

Phew!

Now just consider the fact that even the Hobbits, the (by far) slowest people to get “exited” (erm – except for the Ents), were on to him, and these were the most western dwellings in Middle-earth with the exception of the Elven dwellings ruled by Cirdan (who pointedly gave Narya, the Ring of Fire, to Gandalf and not Saruman). Thus Saruman was about as far away from the eastern or southern peoples who might be the ones still inclined to listen to him (as a vague Sauron Junior or whatever). So he had hundreds of leagues (= three miles) to cover, most likely on foot, to get out of territories controlled by or allied to Aragorn’s newly reunited kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor, where one can assume that everyone was aware of his having been a traitor to their cause. Kind of like a Templar knight heading back to France from Palestine by travelling east to west across North Africa and then north through Moorish Spain.

And even had he managed this enormously long journey (would Gríma have stayed by his side the entire way, or even have been able to survive such a trek?), would the Easterlings or Southrons have welcomed him in any way? Most likely he would have arrived there looking like some ragged beggar. And after Gandalf the White had broken his staff at Isengard, would Saruman’s voice still have had its former persuasive power? Saruman was not subject to death by old age, like the Elves, but how long would even he as an incarnate Maia have been able to endure this immense fall from his former position of power? My gut feeling is that at some point, he would have faded, as has often been hinted at as the destiny of the Elves remaining in Middle-earth from the Fourth Age onwards.

[Edited on 08/05/2017 by Gandolorin]
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tarcolan
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on: August 05, 2017 08:31
The question is relevant whichever forum it's in so I'll leave it here. And I'm lazy.

‘But alas for Saruman! I fear nothing more can be made of him. He has withered altogether. All the same, I am not sure that Treebeard is right: I fancy he could do some mischief still in a small mean way.’ - Gandalf


The Voice had lost most of its potency but he was still able to use it persuasively. I can understand his chagrin. He'd been studying ring technology since he came to Middle Earth and it was suddenly taken away from him. By a hobbit! That's enough to make anyone bitter.
Gandolorin
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on: August 06, 2017 12:18
Well, for those non-readers who have not seen the EEs (do such people really exist??? Ahem …), the question might be confusing. But I can very much sympathize with laziness …

By Hobbits, actually. Four of them, or five if you want to be nitpicky (who, me???) and include Déagol’s few minutes of possessing the One Ring. Sméagol – Bilbo – Frodo – Sam – Frodo – Sméagol. To pick another nit, Gandalf and Tom Bombadil also very briefly handled the One Ring in the book …

But then the insult on top of the injury was far greater for Sauron. It was due to direct actions of these Hobbits that Sauron met his demise. In Saruman’s case, it was more indirect. Merry and Pippin rousing the Ents. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, together with more importantly Gandalf’s return as the White, foiling Saruman’s attack on Rohan.

And in Saruman’s canonical end in the book, of course Saruman’s short-lived realization (after Frodo’s Mithril shirt had foiled his treacherous knife attack on Frodo, who then forbade violence against Saruman) that he had massively underestimated what these apparently insignificant little folk were truly capable of (admittedly in a very few individuals like Frodo). The ancient wisdom that arrogance is an alloy including ignorance, equating arrogance with bronze making ignorance the copper in it.
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Lord_Sauron
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on: August 07, 2017 11:08
I haven't read the Lotr books in a while. After Gandalf destroyed Saruman's staff did Saruman manage to get a new one/create another one? If not what stopped him as we know Gandalf had a few.

Also had Saruman lived it could it have been possible for him to be taken as prisoner back to Aman. I'm sure Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond would have been able to manage him.

I think Grima would of been trialed for treason against Rohan and jailed or even executed
Gandolorin
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on: August 08, 2017 02:51
Just checked RoTK Book six chapter VI "Many Partings". After parting with Aragorn near the Gap of Rohan the party, still including Galadriel and Celeborn and their folk, they overtook Saruman and Gríma. And Saruman again had a staff to lean on, at least. But certainly nothing compared to his former staff which had been a token of power, if not more; though I can't for example imagine Saruman having been given it by Treebeard ...

Taking Saruman back to Aman: It kind of echoes the situation at the end of the First Age, when Sauron refused to return to Aman, and apparently Eonwë was not permitted to force him to (which would have saved everybody tons of trouble for almost 6500 years to come!). And for that matter the smoke rising from Saruman’s corpse, like the much vaster cloud of Sauron at the fall of Barad-dûr, was blown away to the east by a westerly wind. Now it should be safe to assume that Sauron and Saruman, as Maiar, must have had something similar to the Elves’ Fëa, actually one of a higher order. The westerly wind can be interpreted as a message from the Far West “you’re not welcome here anymore!” Which leaves … The Void?

As for Gríma … he had been reduced by Saruman to such a wretched wreck at the end, but yet did not seem to be able to leave him … almost a Gollum-like creature … I have a vague hunch that had Saruman and Gríma managed to leave the Shire, somewhere, at some time Gríma would have reacted as he did in the Shire and killed Saruman. And then? How and where is he to continue living? My imagination fails – except for the guess that his remaining live was both miserable and short.

[Edited on 08/08/2017 by Gandolorin]
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