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GreenhillFox
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Post How to understand a statement of Sam
on: August 11, 2017 12:50


I refer to a conversation between the hobbits in Rivendell, just after the council of Elrond:

‘How long do you think I shall have here?’ said Frodo to Bilbo when Gandalf had gone.
‘Oh, I don’t know. I can’t count days in Rivendell,’ said Bilbo. ‘But quite long, I should think. We can have many a good
talk. What about helping me with my book, and making a start on the next? Have you thought of an ending?’
‘Yes, several, and all are dark and unpleasant,’ said Frodo.
‘Oh, that won’t do!’ said Bilbo. ‘Books ought to have good endings. How would this do: and they all settled down and lived together happily ever after?’
‘It will do well, if it ever comes to that,’ said Frodo.
‘Ah!’ said Sam. ‘And where will they live? That’s what I often wonder.’


I cannot understand Sam's last reaction.

If by "they" are meant the hobbits, then as to where they will live after the quest the obvious answer is the Shire. So why would he "often wonder"...?

Or else, by "they" are meant other people? I cannot imagine who else may have been meant.

Did anyone else find this strange and has an interpretation?
'There’s something mighty queer behind this.'
Gandolorin
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on: August 11, 2017 02:17
As a statement of Sam at this point in the quest, it feels totally inappropriate. And even “often wonder”! Sam at this point does not strike me as someone given to wondering much, let alone often. His knowledge of any “theys” beyond Hobbits of the Shire, more pointedly Hobbits not overly far from Hobbiton (even Farmer Maggot and the Brandybucks in Buckland beyond the Brandywine river must have seemed odd to him, never mind Bree), must have been extremely limited. In contrast, the Hobbit with the - at this time - immensely largest first-hand knowledge of non-Hobbit “theys” was Bilbo. A quote from Bilbo that JRRT found unfitting considering Bilbo’s earlier comments, and thus - actually even more - unfittingly transferred to Sam?

When JRRT had finally reached the end of the quest, he found the need to do some writing backwards to make earlier passages fit better with the ending. On a “smaller” (?) scale like the changes in Bilbo’s meeting with Gollum in the original “Hobbit” to make more sense of what happened in LoTR. Not everything could be made to fit, I assume. And there might very well be the issues of passages very well written and fitting in themselves, which might have had to be re-written extensively, losing their internal fit in the process.

As I may have posted elsewhere, such a stringent writing backwards to unify the tone of earlier passages with later ones could have robbed LoTR of precisely an aspect that I believe has made LoTR so unique to millions upon millions of its readers: the shift from (almost) Hobbit to (almost) Silmarillion, and back to what one could view as an “adult” Hobbit. Also probably the aspect that has driven legions of critics with narrowly compartmentalized minds (discontinuous minds craving neat, artificial, bureaucratic, lawyer order), desperate to find single pigeonholes that LoTR stubbornly refused to stay in, and could not be kept in despite hydrophobic efforts of the little minds, to what seem to me to be mental meltdowns.

Would those (I can’t resist the perhaps ungenerously snide term) pea-brains have noticed such a tiny, one-line oddity? I seriously doubt it. But then are we, if possibly with a much wider background of knowledge about details, really totally different from them? We do not know how much Bilbo taught Sam about the Elves (or for that matter how much Bilbo learned about the Elves during his stay in Rivendell while returning from Erebor to Hobbiton) before TA 3001, how much Sam might have guessed about the Rangers from what he had heard in Rivendell – possibly: would the Elves continue to leave Middle-earth even if Sauron should be defeated? Would the Rangers give up their secretive lifestyle and return to prominence as rightful kings?

"Often wonder" still remains as anachronistic for Sam, in my feeling. The Hobbits and Aragorn had only been in Rivendell for a few days. But then, we don’t know what often means from Sam’s point of view, compared to normal or seldom. For his own perception (= his reality), he may very well have been mulling these things often.
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tarcolan
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on: August 12, 2017 02:25
There is always the risk of over-analysing. The answer may be a little more mundane. Frodo at least remembered Sam's words when they got back to the Shire.
Gandolorin
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on: August 12, 2017 05:37
Yes, but over-analysing can occasionally be fun!

But what you say about Frodo remembering makes me veer towards the probablity of a write-back which didn't make real sense in the context of Rivendell after the Hobbits had barely made it there from the Shire.
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GreenhillFox
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on: August 12, 2017 09:40
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Tarcolan and Gandolorin.
Could you just point me to the exact text where Frodo remembered Sam's words, pls?
'There’s something mighty queer behind this.'
tarcolan
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on: August 13, 2017 09:35
"I see," said Frodo: "you want to get married, and yet you want to live with me in Bag End too? But my dear Sam, how easy! Get married as soon as you can, and then move in with Rosie. There’s room enough in Bag End for as big a family as you could wish for." - 'The Grey Havens'
Sam had always intended to ask Rosie to marry him. At Rivendell he was wondering where they might live. Frodo probably decided then that they would live at Bag End when they returned, in fact it seems to be assumed, going by Frodo's question just before that quote - "When are you going to move in and join me, Sam?". At least I can't remember this ever being discussed before that.
Gandolorin
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on: August 15, 2017 12:18
That Sam, throughout his travels, stayed very rooted in the Shire and what was important there, in this case specifically for himself, makes sense. Bilbo ever so often wishes himself back in Bag End during The Hobbit, and it has rightly been pointed out that Sam is the true equivalent in LoTR to Bilbo in TH, literally becoming his true heir by becoming master of Bag End upon the departure of Bilbo and Frodo.
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