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DarkLord153
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Post Gollum and the Ring
on: August 16, 2017 04:09
If Gollum kept the Ring for longer than 500 years, would anything else happen to him? For example, if he kept the Ring for 1000 years? Would it change his appearance or his thinking in any way?
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tarcolan
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on: August 16, 2017 10:13
It's amazing he managed to keep going for so long, but Hobbits and Dwarves seem to have had greater resilience to the effect of the Ring. As Gandalf says in Bk1 Ch2
"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the Dark Power that rules the Rings.
Yes, sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the Dark Power will devour him." - Gandalf, The Shadow of The Past
Gollum had stopped using the Ring in the cave as it was dark anyway, so he hadn't become invisible. He would eventually become a wraith like the Nine.
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GreenhillFox
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on: August 16, 2017 10:22
In addition, as Gandalf explained:

'Among the Wise I am the only one that goes in for hobbit-lore [...]. Soft as butter they can be, and yet sometimes as tough as old tree-roots. I think it likely that some would resist the Rings far longer than most of the Wise would believe.'

He also concluded that Gollum had hobbits as ancestors and that therefore Gollum still withstood the dominance of the Ring in part despite the long time (2463-2941) that he had held it:

‘Even Gollum was not wholly ruined. He had proved tougher than even one of the Wise would have guessed – as a hobbit might. There was a little corner of his mind that was still his own'.
'There’s something mighty queer behind this.'
Lord_Sauron
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on: August 17, 2017 12:39
If Deagol did give Smeagol the ring for his birthday present do you think he would of still become Gollum?. My opinion is that one reason that Smeagol became Gollum was because he murdered to get the ring. As far as I know no one else committed murder to gain a ring of power. Isildur cut Sauron's finger off and though he defeated Sauron I can't see it be called murder. I do believe that if Gollum did have the Ring for a 1000 years he would of become invisible.
GreenhillFox
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on: August 17, 2017 04:15
See Tarcolan's answer, it's there:

'Yes, sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the Dark Power will devour him.'
'There’s something mighty queer behind this.'
Gandolorin
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on: August 18, 2017 03:19
But what Gandalf says is ambivalent, and wide open to my favorite activity: nitpicking.

With "he", Gandalf here means a mortal. Dwarves are also mortal, if normally longest-lived of mortals except for several of the Númenoreans of Elros’s line. But it is quite firmly stated that the seven Dwarven Kings and their heirs did not fade in the slightest; the lust for gold was kindled more fiercely in their hearts, they became greedier. A nitpick back could of course point out that while mortal, the Dwarves were not of the Eruhíni, the children of Ilúvatar, but created by Aulë. But Eruhíni included the immortal Elves *STOP*

Next nitpick: “sooner or later the Dark Power will devour him.” Does devour necessarily mean turn him into a wraith? For certain, Gollum’s appearance by the time of LoTR would not make anyone spontaneously think of a Hobbit. Perhaps that was the way a Great Ring “devoured” a Hobbit, making him resemble a skeleton more and more – the opposite of what happens to a Hobbit with sufficient food supplies. How much skinnier, more like a or beyond a ruined addict could Gollum have become?

Again what we have is a case of insufficient information (the dream of all fanfic authors with lively imaginations, conspiracy theorists in real life, and of course sub-fanfic posters like myself ). How long did it take for (each of) the Nazgûl to become a Ringwraith? How often and for how long did they use their rings? The latter question also applies for Gollum, for Bilbo, for Frodo.

And there is the contrast of Gollum coming by the One Ring by murdering Déagol, while Bilbo refrained from a possible murder of Gollum when he acquired it. Gandalf makes a point about this to Frodo. Could Bilbo have become much older than Gollum while holding the One Ring, if given the chance? Or was Gollum’s disappearing in to the roots of the Misty Mountains the secret to his longevity?

I think I’ll hit the brakes on my freewheeling speculation here ...
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GreenhillFox
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on: August 18, 2017 08:44
Now that our friend Gandolorin has come to full cruising speed ... next question!

If indeed by "he" is meant a mortal, then what about elves? Can we speculate what the possession of the Ring would do to an immortal? Isn't it strange that this process would not affect them?

If so, wouldn't it be much smarter decision to choose an elf as the Ringbearer? Let's not forget that Frodo eventually failed and that it was indeed Gollum who finished the quest whether he wanted or not..
'There’s something mighty queer behind this.'
Lord_Sauron
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on: August 18, 2017 09:45
I think I recall you Gando in another topic (it might be in the Vaire realm) that you suspected that the Nine may have become wraiths within 200 Years. However (this is my opinion) during the time from making the Rings and the Fall of Numenor we can say that Sauron was at his peak and of course he held the Ring so his will could have been intensified causing the Nine to become wraiths faster. While Gollum had the Ring Sauron was at his weakest and gradually rebuilding from his defeat against the Last Alliance which may be part of the reason why Gollum didn't become a wraith. Also I wonder if once the Nine had put their Rings on could they take them back off? Or were they stuck on their fingers until they became wraiths

Greenhillfox nice question. I just have to think of something to write
GreenhillFox
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on: August 18, 2017 11:43
I just remember now the following exchange between Elrond and Gandalf during the Council:

Elrond: ‘[…] And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise. For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so. I fear to take the Ring to hide it. I will not take the Ring to wield it.’
‘Nor I,’ said Gandalf.

This may indicate that the possession of the Ring also affects immortals.
'There’s something mighty queer behind this.'
Lord_Sauron
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on: August 19, 2017 12:09
The only immortal that the Ring had no affect on was Tom Bombadil who actually wore it. Gandalf in the book did hold the Ring only to pass it to Frodo. We saw the change of Galadriel when she was tempted to take the Ring and yes she did pass the test however would she gave passed it if she was tempted by the ring outside of her Realm.
Here is a part of Tolkien's letter number 246.
"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end. Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great). "

[Edited on 08/19/2017 by Lord_Sauron]
Gandolorin
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on: August 19, 2017 04:22
Going back to tarcolan’s quote of two days ago, Gandalf mentions “one of the Great Rings”, not simply the One Ring. The “Great Rings” are almost certainly, in ascending order of potency (inverse to the number of rings created) The Nine for mortal men, The Seven for the Dwarven lords, The Three for the Elven lords, and The One. With one very important difference being that Sauron had no part in the creation of The Three for the Elven lords. If I remember correctly, it was Galadriel from the day go, Gil-galad handing his over to Elrond, and Cirdan handing his over to Gandalf. None of the bearers of these three rings ever had issues with wraithing. Was it the purity of these rings, or the native might of the bearers? What would have happened to a mortal who had (how?) gotten hold of one of the Elven Rings?

There is the - to me - odd and illogical bit that with the destruction of the One Ring, The Three would also lose their potency. Sauron allowed a serious part of his native power to enter his One Ring precisely because that was necessary (apparently) to SUBDUE the potency of The Three. So how in Angband does the destruction of the One Ring, meant as a suppressive force to their own potency, for some crazy reason NOT release their full, now unhindered, potential, but actually reduce them to impotency? Personally, I consider this aspect of Middle-earth to be the one where John Ronald blew it sky-higher than anywhere else – kind of his PJ moment.

And another thought: Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel would have had, in contrast to Sauron, TWO Great Rings in each case. No weakening of The One by one of The Three?
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GreenhillFox
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on: August 23, 2017 05:10
Whilst in the process of discussing rings, an earlier thought of mine came to mind again, about the power of the 7 (of the Dwarves).

What about those? What was their virtue, what their curse? Do we have factual canonic references?

LotR was rather vague about those (to my mind, at least!).
'There’s something mighty queer behind this.'
Lord_Sauron
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on: August 23, 2017 04:57
In the Silmarillion there is a chapter titled Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
It says that the Dwarves were hard to corrupt and wouldn't fall under Sauron's domination or anyone else's. They used their Rings for only getting wealth. It was said that the foundation of each of the seven hoards of the Dwarf Kings of old was a Single golden ring. The Seven Rings increased the Dwarf Kings greed
It could be that the ring that Durin VI (the same one that King Thror will inherit) may have in way caused him to dig deeper in Moria which caused the Balrog to wake. If Durin VI never had the ring we could speculate that the dwarves may not have dug deeper and thus the Balrog would never have been woken
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