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Elainiwen
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Post Galadriel and Celeborn: Went to Lórien together or separately?
on: October 22, 2017 02:28
I'm trying to understand which version is the more fitting.

Some say that...

  • Only Galadriel went with Celebrían after Annatar's revolt while Celeborn stayed in Eregion.
  • The whole family went after Annatar's revolt.
  • The whole family went but not until after Eregion was assaulted.

    • I also know that...

  • It's not unusual for the elven spouses (even happy ones) to live apart for some time if Celeborn stayed in Eregion.
  • It would not have been impossible for Gil-galad's message about the impending attack to reach Lórien and Celeborn if he was there at the time. Gil-galad did send Galadriel the Mallorn nuts after all.

    • Either way, it looks like Celeborn somehow has to end up in Rivendell ahead of Galadriel and Celebrían, because that's important to Celebrían's storyline.

    I just feel a bit lost there.

    [Edited on 10/23/2017 by Elainiwen]
    Gandolorin
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    on: October 23, 2017 12:16
    First off, this is obviously a case for our master of HoME, Elthir, whose ability to find the relevant quotes in the “History of Middle-earth” always amazes me (I also own the twelve volumes, but …).

    As a very general point, what leads to conflicting variants of the story of “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn” (the actual title of a part of “Unfinished Tales” the book having been published before the entire HoME) is JRRT’s constantly shifting concepts of specifically Galadriel’s history. Strictly from memory, my impression is that he had the almost irresistible urge to dissociate Galadriel from the entire Fëanorian rebellion, especially the First Kin-slaying at the Havens of Alqualondë where the Noldor stole the Telerin ships after a murderous raid. Galadriel was after all half Telerin through her mother, in fact a granddaughter of the Telerin King in Valinor, Olwë, and “only” a quarter Noldo, but – offsetting this? - also half (royal) Vanya through her paternal grandmother. Perhaps a tendency JRRT had, as pointed out by Tom Shippey in one of his books, of being “soft-hearted”. Shippey noted that in the parts of HoME dealing with LoTR, there were many occasions where JRRT might have been tempted to yield to this urge, but fortunately managed to resist it. Otherwise, some of the criticisms levelled at JRRT about LoTR about simplistic black-and-white characterization of bad and good would have become (more) valid, and would have seriously diminished the book. Critics often overlooked the ambivalent characters, often broken characters, which in varying degrees included Saruman, Wormtongue, Boromir, Denethor, Gollum, Lobelia and her son Lotho Sackville-Baggins, Radagast, and also Frodo himself (as far as personally destroying the One Ring, he actually failed; and after his return to the Shire, he was not really able to enjoy it in the just over two years before his departure on the Elven ship).

    And Galadriel. Pure speculation, of course, but JRRT may have always been a bit uncomfortable with ambiguity, as a devout Catholic, while professionally (and as a writer of mythology) he was aware that life was and remains ambiguous.
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    Elthir
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    on: October 23, 2017 10:39
    short answer

    In the "Celebrian meets Elrond" version, Celeborn doesn't go to Lorien, but in the later scenarios he does, either with or without Galadriel.

    long misty version

    It might depend upon how one defines fitting I guess.

    My approach with posthumously published material is to give later texts greater weight (as Tolkien revises, changes his mind), except where they conflict with already published details (as Tolkien seems to forget things sometimes).

    Your option 1 is from the same text with a direct mention of Celebrian and Elrond's meeting in Imladris, but it's from Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn, which contains ideas I think were rejected.

    Galadriel is here co-ruler, co-founder of Eregion! Her son is Amroth! She seemingly allows Annatar "in" despite doubting him! Ousted from power by the Mirdain, she goes to Lorien with Celebrian, but Celeborn doesn't go, and so Galadriel later seeks and finds him in Imladris, where Celebrian meets Elrond.

    I don't recall option 2 being specifically penned by JRRT.

    With respect to option 3 above, after the destruction of Eregion...

    3a Galadriel, Celebrian, Celeborn, pass to Lorien.

    or

    3b Celeborn passes to Lorien, later joins Galadriel (and presumably Celebrian) in Lindon. No mention of when Galadriel went to Lindon here, but possibly before Sauron came with war to Eregion.

    And so far there appears to be no way to date which idea, 3a or 3b, is later than the other. Drat.

    But either way there's plenty of time for Celebrian to meet Elrond in Imladris, though what is said is simply that Galadriel and Celeborn returned twice to Lorien before the Last Alliance (possibly a nod to 3a, but not necessarily I think). Note the huge gap in years between the second and third date below.

    SA 1697 Eregion laid waste
    SA 1701 Sauron driven out of Eriador
    SA 3430 Last Alliance is formed

    In other words, in what I call the later scenario, Tolkien doesn't say when Celebrian and Elrond meet and fall in love, but there's a notable amount of time for this to happen. And for example, Tolkien has seemingly rejected Galadriel and Celeborn's "agelong" sojourn in Belfalas, where Amroth "their son" visits them. And I think he's rejected other notions from Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn too.


    In my head anyway, Celebrimbor the Feanorian (this detail was added by Tolkien in Appendix B to the revised edition) is Lord of Eregion and allows Annatar in. After Eregion's fall, Elrond and Celebrian meet "sometime" in the Second Age.

    Celeborn rules the "fief" of South Lindon, based upon Appendix B and a late note (keeping in mind Christopher Tolkien's statement about the ambiguity of this note, see The History of Galadriel And Celeborn note 2), but as there are two trips to Lorien... why not drop by Imladris sometime too?

    And bring your daughter

    [Edited on 10/27/2017 by Elthir]
    Elthir
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    on: October 24, 2017 12:36
    Strictly from memory, my impression is that he had the almost irresistible urge to dissociate Galadriel from the entire Fëanorian rebellion, especially the First Kin-slaying at the Havens of Alqualondë where the Noldor stole the Telerin ships after a murderous raid.


    I think this was maybe an older Tolkien's desire (1970s Tolkien) to cultivate possible connections between Galadriel and the Virgin Mary, though in any case, it's also an older Tolkien who decided that Galadriel actually fought at Swanhaven.

    In The Shibboleth of Feanor, dated "1968 or later", Galadriel is still part of the Rebellion, and fought "fiercely" in defense of the Teleri. In the very late "adumbrated" story removing Galadriel from the Rebellion, she still fights "heroically" at Swanhaven, as she was there at the time.

    In the pre-Galadriel Quenta Silmarillion (mid to later 1930s) and in my opinion in the early 1950s version (keeping in mind Galadriel's talk with Melian and the Finarfinian reply to Thingol here), the Finarfinians simply arrived at Swanhaven after the battle had ended, and thus had no part in the Kinslaying. Tolkien has Angrod say, for instance:

    "Wherefore should we that endured the Grinding Ice bear the name of kinslayers and traitors?"

    I believe the notion that the people of Finarfin (including Galadriel and Finrod) had no part in the Kinslaying was still in play when JRRT wrote these conversations in Doriath.

    [Edited on 10/26/2017 by Elthir]
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