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morelkor
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on: October 27, 2017 07:17
I have a few questions about Ents and Entwives.

First I was wondering whether or not Ents were immortal. Obviously they could die from wounds, but would they die from old age? Does anyone know?

I also wonder if the Ents turning tree-ish had to do with their grief over the loss of the Entwives. Maybe it was similar to an elf dying from grief.

I also had a thought on some random comment made by Lord Sauron in a games thread about the creation of the Olog-hai. I wondered whether the Ent-wives were bred with the normal trolls tho make the (marginally) more intelligent Olog-hai? I have no evidence to back up the thought, but couldn't think of anything to contradict it either. I'm honestly kind of hoping that this can be proved wrong. It could have just been selective breeding.

Though I wonder if Sauron, and Morgoth for that matter, simply used some sort of genetic manipulation to distort creatures to their purpose.

Plenty to think about anyway...
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Gandolorin
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on: October 28, 2017 02:59
Oh dear, compared to discussions about Orcs the “evidence” in JRRT’s writing is woefully thin (with the exception of the “fact” that “Orc-wives” are never mentioned, as far as I know).

A question I would pose (unanswerable in any texts) is how did the Ent-wives differ in appearance from the Ents? Were they also tree-like, or would they have been more similar to some large bushes? Their apparent preference for agricultural crops vs. trees raises this question for me. A mammal which shows extreme dimorphism in size between males and females is the southern elephant seal, with dominant bulls being over three to four-and-a-half times a heavy as females. What makes this comparison weak (besides plenty of other reasons) is that plants (as far as I know – but my amateur knowledge of zoology is far greater than that of botany!) rarely have a separation between males and females; a notable exception known to me seems to be the date palm (which forced some guy in Arabia who lived well over 1000 years ago to dump a dogma as far as date palms were concerned to avoid famine).

When Ents first roamed Middle-earth – nobody knows. As they were intended (by Yavanna) to be mobile defenders of the immobile Olvar against the by definition mobile Kelvar, they could theoretically predate the awakening of the Elves. Even Celeborn in RoTK calls Treebeard “Eldest”, so that might be a serious hint at the ancientness of the Ents (and I’m not getting into the Treebeard-vs.-Tom-Bombadil discussion here!). Elves “fade”. Ents become “tree-ish” (and so Huorns? Or can trees become Huorns, and more?).

At any rate, Treebeard has very few – in Fangorn Forest only a handful or less – of his “generation” left, a pitiful remnant even compared to the High Elves of the time. Likely due to the fact that even compared to the “slow breeders” that men thought Elves to be, that was still “mouse territory” compared to Ents. So the loss of any one potential breeder, be it through destruction, be it through becoming “tree-ish”, had far more serious effects on the Ents than on any other breeders in Middle-earth.
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morelkor
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on: October 28, 2017 01:38
Off topic, but...

Waiving away the claims of oldest on both sides (cuz who really cares???) Could Tom Bombadil, and Goldberry and her mother for that matter, also have been creatures sent by Yavanna to look after her creation? Everyone takes that passage to mean the Ents, and of course it does, but that doesn't mean that the passage is referring only to Ents. It never explicitly says what the spirits she sent are, so could have Bombadil and the River-people belonged to that group as well?
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Lord_Sauron
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on: October 28, 2017 04:03
I think most Tolkien fans believe that Tom was a Maia. It is possible that Yavamna may have sent him to Middle Earth or he decided to enter Middle Earth on his own decision. Tom claims to be there before the Dark lord came from the outside since Tom says this in the Fellowship of the Ring I believe the Dark lord is referring to Sauron. The members Elthir or Gandolorin may have more information on the subject of Tom Bombadil. What I can say is that there are Tom Bombadil threads in the Book forum.
Also remember Yavanna had requested that Radagast be one of the five Istari sent to unite the free peoples against Sauron. Now we know that Saruman failed the two blue wizards I don't know much about. However did Radagast really fail or did he have a mission from Yavanna to protect the Animals and Trees
Gandolorin
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on: October 29, 2017 03:04
If one takes the end result achieved by Gandalf – though in a second incarnation as The White - i.e. the defeat of Sauron as what all five Istari were sent to middle-earth for, then only Saruman and Gandalf stayed focused (we know absolutely nothing of the two blue wizards who went east, and Radagast seems to have gotten side-tracked by a secondary or even less relevant interest – the distracted niggler of the three Istari appearing in LoTR, so to speak). Saruman with his “Aulë-weakness” – being in many ways more “attuned” to Sauron than to any of the other Istari – actually betrayed the task he was sent to do. But are we to assume that all five Istari were given tasks narrowly defined, perhaps “raise (military) opposition to Sauron to defeat him in battle”? Maybe Radagast did precisely what was necessary at the right time. Saruman underestimated him arrogantly, and Radagast caused Gwaihir to end up releasing Gandalf from Orthanc – which The Grey could not have achieved on his own.

To go to the crux of the whole Ring quest at the Cracks of Doom in Sammath Naur: yes, getting there with the One Ring (with serious help from Sam) was Frodo’s purpose; destroying the One Ring was not. The apparently trivial act of sparing Gollum in the Emyn Muil (as had Bilbo decades before below the Misty Mountains) is what actually leads to the destruction of the One Ring.

As for morelkor’s question about TB and Lord_Sauron’s comment on it, TB as a Maia is anything but implausible (Goldberry’s mother – not mentioned in LoTR, as far as I know - does seem more anachronistic in the “entire” tale than TB himself). But from the mulch of my memory – as usual I’m hoping that Elthir can provide specifics from less-decayed sources – there is mention of unspecified “spirits”. The Valar and the Maiar are both declared to be Ainur (of the Great Music), those who decided to enter Arda. Proposition: those who ended up in Valinor and became known to the Elves. Melkor’s baddies that the Valar didn’t bother about when they took him prisoner when the Elves awoke, and thus remained in M-e, would have been unknown to the Elves in Valinor. And not all who remained in M-e when Melkor headed off to his three ages of captivity in Valinor were baddies. Plenty of stuff that even Elrond, Galadriel and Co. knew little or nothing about.

Ungoliant. Very unlikely to have been a Vala. Maybe a Maia. More likely some none-Valinorean “spirit”, a class of Ainur not known to the Elves. When she and Melkor make it to Middle-earth, she has become so powerful that Melkor needs the help of his Balrogs (there is more consensus on their being Maiar than for other beings) to drive Ungoliant off. Ungoliant’s descendant Shelob.

So maybe we have at least three classes of Ainur who entered Arda. Valar and Maiar became (some of them, maybe many of them) known to the Elves who lived in Valinor. But a third, I’ll call it “lump”, of Ainur-in Arda – from an Elven perspective meaning “neither-Valar-not-Maiar” but otherwise vague and foggy. Ents? TB / Goldberry / her mother? Dragons? Watcher in the Water?

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Evil~Shieldmaiden
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on: October 29, 2017 08:54
My heart be still. A double post of the thread itself, a triple post by L_S, and a quadruple post by Gando. I haven't had this much fun deleting posts in quite some time. Going, going, gone.
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Lord_Sauron
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on: October 29, 2017 04:13
I think Ungoliant was a maia probably a higher class of Maia to even the ones who became balrogs. We know that the Aratar was made up of eight Vala that were greater than the others. So it could be very possible that there were Maia in a higher class than the others possibly consisting of Eonwe, Ilmarë, Melian and Sauron perhaps even Ungoliant was part of thus group as well?
Elthir
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on: October 30, 2017 12:16
"First I was wondering whether or not Ents were immortal. Obviously they could die from wounds, but would they die from old age?"

There's a late letter (1972) in which Tolkien notes that Ents and Entwives would find some earthly paradise until the "end of this world" at the same time noting that he thinks there would be no reunion for them in history...

... in other words, he doesn't appear to be talking about the survival of Ents (to the end of the world) by way of more Entings.

Galadriel's opinion was that Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else souls that slowly took on the likeness of trees [note to draft letter 247, 1963]. Even trees die obviously, and how long could Entish spirits sustain their bodies?

Unless, in the 1972 comment, JRRT means that the Entish spirits live on in Arda. Even the souls of Men don't "die" as in cease to exist, but normally Men's spirits must leave the Earth and its time of course.

So... what was the question. I forget

"I also wonder if the Ents turning tree-ish had to do with their grief over the loss of the Entwives."

I don't get that general impression myself (individual cases being possible I guess), and in general even Treebeard says: "The trees and the Ents," said Treebeard. "I do not understand all that goes on myself, so I cannot explain it to you."

He does, however, use the term "true Ents", possibly in distinction from trees "getting Entish" (as he also says). And to my mind, if trees getting Entish meant the possible "birth" of new Ents, I would wonder about the lack of Entings seeming to mean no new Ents.

The Ent also notes that some of his kin look just like trees now, which I think corresponds with my belief that true Ents don't simply look like walking, talking trees... in other words, I think true Ents are much more "humanoid"... if still tree-like in colouration, barky skin, being (say) 14 feet tall, for three examples.

"I also had a thought on some random comment made by Lord Sauron in a games thread about the creation of the Olog-hai. I wondered whether the Ent-wives were bred with the normal trolls tho make the (marginally) more intelligent Olog-hai?"

As a side note I don't believe trolls were necessarily made from Ents, but as Treebeard says, made in mockery of Ents. That's different in any case. Appendix F specifically notes that the Olog-hai were bred by Sauron but "from what stock was not known".

At the moment I can't think of any evidence to specifically prove Entwives were not involved, but no one can say for certain what stock was used either.

Regarding "Eldest"...

"Eldest was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest speaking peoples after the Elves (...) They were therefore placed after the Dwarves in the Old List... since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking"

JRRT draft letter, private collection, dated 1968


Not my private collection sadly, but it's not in the book The Letters of JRR Tolkien anyway.

[Edited on 10/30/2017 by Elthir]
Wandering Noldo
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on: December 05, 2017 03:59
1) In that case Bombadil *is* older than the ents, as Bombadil was older than the elves.
2) Oh, and to add to the Bombadil discussion I think he is Tolkien...¨
3) On Ents and entwives: If the topic of Ents really fascinates you I recommend reading (or listening to) Peter Wohllebens new book: The secret life of tress - that is fascinating...
He felt a delight in wood and the touch of it, neither as forester nor as carpenter; it was the delight of the living tree itself.
Gandolorin
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on: December 06, 2017 01:27
Wandering Noldo said:...¨3) On Ents and entwives: If the topic of Ents really fascinates you I recommend reading (or listening to) Peter Wohllebens new book: The secret life of tress - that is fascinating...

I can second that recommendation without the slightest reservation, Wandering Noldo. It has been in the German bestseller lists for close to 130 (!!!) weeks by now, and as per English Wiki:
"... An English translation was published in September, 2016 under the title The Hidden Life of Trees: What they Feel, How they Communicate with a foreword by Tim Flannery, published in partnership with the David Suzuki Institute. ..."
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morelkor
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on: December 22, 2017 11:27
I found the quote that has been bugging me with its elusiveness. (The Entwives) "may have fled East, or even have become enslaved" and (...) "if any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult -- unless experience of industrialization and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know."

Anyway, that could support my theory about cross breeding with trolls to make Olog-hai. It doesn't disprove it at any rate.

I feel like if Saruman could breed orcs with men, then trolls with ents doesn't seem too far-fetched. (or is it just me who thinks it possible?)

By the way, was it actually ever confirmed that Saruman bred orcs with men, or was that just the conjectures of characters in the books???
I ain't been droppin' no eaves, sir, honest.
Gandolorin
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on: December 23, 2017 12:08
The problem is, what would modern-day taxonomist classify Ents and Entwives as? Ents occasionally become “tree-ish” … This could cause insurmountable obstacles if we’re talking separate kingdoms here.

As to the “half-Orcs”, I think conjectures of characters in the books is the safer bet, though the obstacles to interbreeding would be immensely lower than between Trolls and Ent / Entwives.
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morelkor
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on: December 23, 2017 12:37
Do you think that Ents are actually trees inhabited by spirits or some other kind of creature that looks like trees? I always thought that they were only like trees in their outward appearance. Do anyone have any information on that? Because if they were trees, then breeding with the Ent-wives does seem unlikely.
I ain't been droppin' no eaves, sir, honest.
tarcolan
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on: December 23, 2017 04:33
They're not trees, oh no. They were created by Ilúvatar in answer to Yavanna's prayer. She was worried that all her creations would be harmed. They are the guardians of all plant life. They are not much like trees either, according to the description in Book III Ch IV of LOTR, 'Treebeard', when Merry and Pippin first see him.
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Gandolorin
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on: December 23, 2017 04:40
Some other kind of creatures that look like trees (I’ve occasionally wondered what a redwood / sequoia Ent would look like – especially how big he would be), I’d guess. Tolkien wasn’t writing a biology textbook, so he left the origins of many things obscure, one of the unexplored vistas seen indistinctly on some sort of horizon. With Ents and Entwives being mobile, the “pollination” by intermediaries like wind, insects, birds, bats would not be necessary, at least. But all of that was off-stage for all living beings with JRRT, and I doubt that there’s anything buried anywhere with more detail. Behind the horizon, this time, actually.
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Lord_Sauron
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on: December 24, 2017 08:33
I found the following paragraphs on another Tolkien website called tolkiengateway about the Entwives.

One of the primary daggers on the survival of the Entwives is found in Letter 144 of The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien:
"I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429 – 3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin..."
― Letter 144

In 2017, a Quora user named Pip Willis published a partial image of a map he claimed his father drew and shared with J.R.R. Tolkien in 1971. Willis alleges that Tolkien wrote on the map "Here may be Entwives", in an area on the east bank a southern bow of the river Carnen, flowing into the Sea of Rhûn.

[Edited on 12/25/2017 by Lord_Sauron]
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