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GreenhillFox
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Post Titles of honor in LotR
on: December 11, 2017 08:25
In this great tale of kingdoms and realms, I was wondering about the confusing use of titles of honor.

It seemed to me that our admired author might have been taking them on board in a bit of a disordered manner. Of course, my mother tongue is not English, and wow English he knew! I'd have to be mad completely to challenge him.

This being said respectfully (as duly required) here's my collection of honorific titles in LotR:

    Gaffer: refers to Sam's father, for sure. The term doesn't seem to be used in any other context. According to Wikipedia it could stand also for someone higher in grade or older in years and respected for other than formal reasons.
    Mr.: Baggins family, Maggot, Peregrin Took, Meriadoc Brandybuck, Gandalf, Butterbur, Strider (if referred to by or to hobbits). The title is often found in the narrator's text as well (like "Mr. Butterbur". Once out of the Shire, the term is mostly used by Sam alone.
    Sir: used by Sam to other hobbits like Pippin etc when answering to orders. Used by hobbits to refer to other no-hobbit people, not always with clear reason to me (e.g. Merry to "Dernhelm". Also, Sam refers to Frodo occasionally as "Sir".
    Lord (apart from "Lord of the Rings", obviously): seems to refer to kingly stature, like Aragorn or the steward Denethor. Also mentioned are the Wraith-lord, the lord of Dol Amroth, lord boromir and lord Faramir etc… No real need to be king for being addressed like this, I thought.


The hints on authority levels abound though. Everywhere in these books, obedience to those higher-born or higher in rank equals undiscussed virtue. So therefore, it looked curious to me that such terms were in use in confusing ways throughout the tale.

Anyone willing to share a thought…?


[Edited on 12/11/2017 by GreenhillFox]
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Gandolorin
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on: December 11, 2017 09:40
Ah, GrennhillFox, perhaps you’d like to check out the English Wikipedia? There’s a ton of stuff on every term, even Gaffer, which I would hate to try and copy here. I don’t want our CoE server to crash!

With “Gaffer”, don’t get discouraged with the redirection to “Supervisor”. Just scroll down a bit, and “Gaffer” reappears, with a cross-reference to “Gaffer Gamgee”!
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GreenhillFox
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on: December 11, 2017 06:42
... I almost forgot "Master Elrond" !
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tarcolan
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on: December 12, 2017 12:13
"Good evening, little master..."

I was going to suggest you write an article for the library on this subject, GreenhillFox but soon realised it is worthy of a book or two. Even the relationship between Frodo and Sam would fill a few pages. See here -
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GreenhillFox
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on: December 12, 2017 01:35
Maybe, my silly thread comes from a deformity remaining from my military service, now many years ago!

We, involuntary drafted youngsters into the Belgian army, were all trained to look at the stars and stripes on someone's shoulder, to know if we should call him or her (mostly him): "sergeant", "lieutenant", "captain", "colonel" etc. We were even trained to debit these zoology terms without a split second of doubt (or else...) like some programmed Pavlov reflex!

JRRT did his military service as well (and with no greater enthusiasm than me, as I have read). Maybe he recovered better than I did... judging from his later very confusing use of titles!
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Gandolorin
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on: December 14, 2017 03:29
Well, thinking of Stanley Kubrick’s “Full Metal Jacket”, of course the use of “sir” is different from civilian use, where using the term “sir” (or “madam” or shortened “ma’am”) has to do with politeness. May be a “workaround” due to the fact that the English language lost the distinction between formal and familiar pronouns: everyone is “you”. An archaic form of the familiar in English which JRRT uses very sparingly is “thou”, which in German “survives” as “du” (and in French as “tu”? Though in Germany we would have to write “tü” to get the pronunciation right ).

I must confess that my use, or more to the point the lack of it, of “sir” etc. in the current Anglophone world stems from its use in the military (think, perhaps, of the confusion Pippin caused in Minas Tirith because the Hobbits, analogous to English, had only the familiar form left). I served in the West German army from January 1977 to March 1978, smack in the middle of the cold war, and more to the point at the height of the Baader-Meinhof Gang / Red Army Faction left-wing terrorism in West Germany. There are things that are OK in the military, but as far as I am concerned have no justification in civilian life. So whatever seemed to me to be a creeping over of military jargon into the civilian sphere I reject strongly.

I can still recognize the rank of any Budeswehr army soldier in fractions of a second (and most US military ranks – at least outside the navy, as I am also often stumped for German navy ranks – in slightly longer than that). I still have the “Nato-alphabet” memorized down flat: alphabravocharliedalta etc., which is also used in civilian aviation. For whatever that may be useful in my current life.

And as for “master”, the way JRRT had (mostly) Sam use it is also very much early 20th century (and older). Here, again, I would suggest you check Wiki.
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