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tarcolan
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on: January 10, 2019 01:04
Frodo didn't exactly hesitate to give it to Gandalf, it felt sort of heavy as though the ring or he were reluctant for Gandalf to touch it.
Frodo gave Tom the Ring without hesitation, much to his own surprise.

I suppose we can forgive Gandalf for making unsubstantiated claims, we all do that now and then.
Gandolorin
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on: January 10, 2019 07:52
OK, reluctant instead of hesitant.

But then there's a slip perhaps with Tom Bombadil: after he put on the Ring - and did not disappear - "... he spun the Ring in the air - and it vanished with a flash." (emphasis mine) How did that work? Very high-class illusionist's trick? While his true nature is one of the most hotly debated topics about Middle-earth, we must consider him to be at least on a par with Maiar, I would think. Certainly he was not able to do anything to the Ring ...
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tarcolan
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on: January 14, 2019 10:50
We don't know whether Tom could do anything to the Ring, just that he didn't. It wasn't important to him so he probably wouldn't do anything even if he could.

Another example of the leftover word 'again'. When they arrive at the East Road with Tom the text says they had come back to the road, and Frodo says "Well here we are again." In the early draft they did set out on the East Road so it made sense. An easy way of dealing with these leftovers is to edit them out, even with a soft pencil. Gandalf's letter was also in early draft referring to Bingo's admitted use of the Ring, though rarely. Just strike out the word 'again' in the letter and it's mended. It's not an internal solution though, which is what I was hoping for.

The question still remains as to Tolkien's intention here. There is no indication that Frodo used the Ring or didn't use it in the Shire. I suppose it can be a matter of preference by the reader.
Lord_Sauron
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on: January 15, 2019 12:58
I actually could see Frodo using the Ring to hide from the Sackvillie Bagginses
tarcolan
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on: January 15, 2019 06:09
At the risk of being shouted down by honourable members opposite (sorry, I'm still in Brexit mode) can we go back to LOTR 1.2 The Shadow Of The Past? The statements about the Ring as far as it concerns Frodo bear further scrutiny. The first is Gandalf's observation that Bilbo found the Ring to be a bit dodgy;
A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the Dark Power that rules the Rings.
From this we can assume that neither Bilbo nor Frodo had used the Ring enough to make themselves translucent, otherwise people would've noticed. Bilbo said he felt thin and stretched but obviously not enough for Gandalf to notice.

"...it did not seem always of the same size or weight; it shrank or expanded in an odd way, and might suddenly slip off a finger where it had been tight.’
‘Yes, he warned me of that in his last letter,’ said Frodo, ‘so I have always kept it on its chain.’
‘Very wise,’ said Gandalf.
His last letter? Which means Frodo didn't keep it on a chain for most of the past 17 years! Just in his pocket? In what way is this safe, let alone 'very wise'? And why would Frodo be worried it would slip off his finger? I would suggest that the Ring was at work, Frodo persuading himself the best place to keep it was in a pocket where a wandering finger might accidentally slip into it. He ditches the chain for the journey for some reason.

"As long as you never used it, I did not think that the Ring would have any lasting effect on you, not for evil, not at any rate for a very long time."- Gandalf
Frodo changes the subject here so we are none the wiser. Gandalf now knows that simply being the keeper would definitely have a lasting effect, as he said previously. Yet another of his many errors.

What does Gandalf actually say back then?
"No need to worry. But if you take my advice you will use it very seldom, or not at all. At least I beg you not to use it in any way that will cause talk or rouse suspicion. I say again: keep it safe, and keep it secret!"
No need to worry? No wonder Frodo just kept it in his pocket instead of in the underground vault.
Lord_Sauron
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on: January 15, 2019 09:04
Bilbo had the ring for 60 Years and it didn’t really affect him and I think it would of taken 100 or so years for Sméagol to change in to Gollum. Does the Ring cause Sméagol to change because he murdered for it? Would Frodo and Bilbo have transformed if they had the Ring for as long as Gollum?
Gandolorin
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on: January 17, 2019 07:37
tarcolan said:
I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days.

tarcolan said:... (sorry, I'm still in Brexit mode) ...
A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the Dark Power that rules the Rings.

Brexit. Makes me think that a whole lot of lesser rings produced by Celebrimbor & Co survived to our day, and quite a few have somehow descended to some members of Parliament ...

Gandalf uses the term mortal a bit loosely here. Dwarves are also mortal, but their Rings had very little effect on them, and none that Gandalf mentions here. Hobbits are also mortals, and closely related to humans (Big Folk) at that, but then there’s Gandalf’s statement to Frodo that tarcolan quotes. A general toughness of Hobbits so in contrast to their outward appearance of softness, and apparently a toughness quite a bit beyond that of men! The classic examples for the effects Great Rings have on men are the Ringwraiths. Then, there is the notes Isildur made about the One Ring and left in Minas Tirith (though Gandalf only found this after Bilbo’s long-expected party, I believe). Of course, we don’t know how long it took for the Nazgûl to become as they appear in LoTR, and we don’t know how much Gollum used the Ring (as we also don’t know this about Bilbo and Frodo). But I would speculate that it would take longer for Hobbits to become wraiths than it did for the nine men.

And then, none of the Great Rings, not even the One Ring, were omnipotent (Swiss Army knives, so to speak). The Three seem to have had special properties that no others had, and The One was created for a very specific task, to dominate The Three. So perhaps The One has most effect if it is used according to its main purpose, domination. Which would have been bad news for Boromir and Denethor, I would think. But that is not a main characteristic of Hobbits (pace Lotho “Pimple”). So The One has little to work on with Hobbits, at least much less than it would with humans, human rulers being most susceptible.
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tarcolan
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on: January 18, 2019 02:15
Good points, both. Don't forget that burglar Bilbo acquired the Ring under false pretences, if not actually stealing it. Frodo was given it quite legally and accepted it in good faith, knowing somewhat of what it was or might be. It would affect him less than it did Bilbo. But it is being the 'keeper' which matters, rather than just holding it for someone else. I'd guess it would take more than a hundred years for the effects to become irreversible, although Tolkien maintains that even Gollum could be 'saved'.

I'm off into the wild now and no obvious slips of the pen so far.
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