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AerynJade
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Post Translate poems here
on: February 11, 2003 12:07
Hope you don't mind Gildor and Naneth but I thought maybe we could use this thread to translate songs, poems etc. Cuz I like doing that and often need help and I'm sure other people do as well. This way we don't have to start a new thread everytime. So feel free to post translations that you want checked or need help with here. And hopefully Gildor and Naneth and anyone else fluent in Sindarin can pop in to check them, givehelp, suggestions etc. Hope its alright.

Anyway here's one I tried to do. Its the "In Dreams" song from the end of LotR. I am missing a few words and am a little unsure about a few words I do have so help is definately needed. ((ALSO my comp is refusing to put the circumflex & accents on! So I know where they go I just can't put them in!))

Ir i chelech e-'riw tol
Fuin 'ilben tobatha arad
Ned ______ Anor
Padatham ne ross haer

____ ne elei
Laston estad lin
A ned elei
Geveditham ad

Ir i aeer a eryd danna
A telim, na meth in eraid
Ne mor, laston caned
Canel nin ennas
Trevedithon ennas
A ad arad


OK I couldn't find words for "but" as in "But in dreams" and "veiling" as in "veiling of the Sun". I found "veil" esgal but how do you turn a noun into a verb to make it work. Also for Canel I think its wrong. I know you can't use the active particile as a verb but I didnt know how else to do it. and do you put the i "the" in if the phrase is "When the cold---" or "When the seas---"
Or should it just be "When cold--" and not translate the I "the"?
And for line 1 and line 6 i wsn't sure if it should be:
Ir i chelech e-riw tol OR Ir i chelech thriw tol

Laston estad lin OR laston ess lin


IN ENGLISH:
When the cold of winter comes
Starless night will cover day
In the veiling of the Sun
We will walk in bitter rain

But in dreams
I can hear your name
And in dreams
We will meet again

When the seas and mountains fall
And we come, to end of days
In the dark, I hear a call
Calling me there
I will go there
And back again


I am sorry to be annoying with all the questions but I really want to do it correctly and learn Sindarin right.

Hannad! Thnx in advance
AJ/Thalionfineil


[Edited on 12/2/2003 by AerynJade]
Meldon
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 11, 2003 02:09
Suilad,

Fluent hey!! Sorry, I'm far from it *laughs*. But I did notice this:

Treveditham ennas
I will go there

Shouldn't it be:
Trevedithon ennas

Using the _-n_ for 'I' instead of _-m_ which I believe means 'we' and the _-a-_ becoming _-o-_ before the _-n_

As I said, I'm no expert lol. Maybe wait for another comment

Hope I helped a teeny weeny bit

Navaer

Meldom, I mean Meldon
Orosarniel
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 11, 2003 11:04
I couldn't find words for "but" as in "But in dreams" and "veiling"


"But" is translated into Neo-Sindarin as _dan_, which I found this in Eirien Tuilinn's Gobeth-i-Phethath 'win.

_Gwathra-_ is the verb "to overshadow, dim, veil, obscure".

I was skimming over the recent Sindarin lesson given by Elostrion at TORn, who explained a bit about sentence structure. I'm questioning whether the word order in your translation is correct, but the whole deal confuses me, so it may or may not. I'm hoping Gildor Inglorion can write a more detailed explination on Sindarin syntax sometime soon?
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 11, 2003 11:29
They have Sindarin lessons on TORN????????

Gah. Seems like competition is sprouting up everywhere these days! Sheesh. Do you have a link? I am very interested in taking a look at this.....

Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 11, 2003 11:50
Hmm well I found some thing on TORN... Still if you have links to what you were looking at please post them for me.

I generally dislike what this Elostrion is doing. He is assuming far too much and generalizing way to far. Classifying setences by SVO OSV etc is not a very practical way of looking at things. It is better to look at sentence structure on a lower level, ie- noun cases, verbal moods etc.

Edit: Gah! This is horrible, the guy does not have much of a clue about what he is talking about.

My question is then - does Sindarin have cases too or is it entirely up to the context which verb is the subject?
[Elostrion] No cases


Of course there are cases in Sindarin! I can't think of a language that does not!

[Edited on 2/11/2003 by Gildor-Inglorion]
Orosarniel
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 11, 2003 11:58
Here's the link Gildor, though I think you already found it :

http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1044502932

[Edited on 2/11/2003 by Orosarniel]
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 11, 2003 12:06
Yes thats the one I found

I don't think this Elostrion knows what he is talking about. Every language has cases, but not all of them mark them in the same way. (we will discuss some of them in my next lesson... due to come out today if I can finish typing it up fast). Still I am interested in keeping an eye on this guy, just in case he has something useful to say. However, from the first "lesson" it looks like he won't be of much use. He couldn't even translate _onen i estel edain, u-chebin estel anim_. ANYONE who has studied Sindarin sentences structure has to know what that means from heart (just because you get to look at it so much!). Anyway I advise not paying too much attention to this guy. However, lets keep an eye on him and if he does make a useful point I'll let you guys know

Orosarniel
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 11, 2003 12:13
Anyway I advise not paying too much attention to this guy. However, lets keep an eye on him and if he does make a useful point I'll let you guys know

I'll definetely be sticking to your reliable lessons, Gildor!
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 11, 2003 12:20
I'll definetely be sticking to your reliable lessons, Gildor!


*laughs and bows* Why thank you . That is if I can ever get them done on time

It seems like those who know too little are always the ones who gather the biggest crowd and I am not sure why that is. Maybe because it is the easier path to take. (for instance grey-company). *sighs* Oh well, thanks to everyone who has stuck by me and these lessons. They may not be perfect (and they indeed are not!) but I try
jenise
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 11, 2003 12:32
What makes a great teacher is honesty in admitting you don't know everything, and are willing to learn from others...and to correct your mistakes.

Kudos to you Gildor-Inglorion

So I am staying right here to learn my lessons
AerynJade
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 11, 2003 11:44

Treveditham ennas
I will go there

Shouldn't it be:
Trevedithon ennas


OOPS I knew that and still wrote it down wrong! *turns red* Thnx!

And Gildor-This is the ONLY site I take my Sindarin lessons on! You are a great teacher so why go anywhere else!!

And thnx Orsarniel as well. OK could I get some advice on the other ??s I posted? I really want to get this right so please point out all my mistakes-THNX-AJ
Naneth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 12, 2003 05:26
AerynJade .... you did a really great job on this... I wouldn't change too much. Here's what I came up with:

Ir i chelch e-‘riw tôl
(When the cold of winter comes)
Fuin ar-‘iliath tobatha arad
(Night without stars will follow day)
Vi dolthad Anor
(In the concealing of the sun)
Padatham vi ross haer
(We will walk in bitter rain)
Dan vi elei
(But in dreams)
Gerin lasto estad lín
(I am able to hear your name)
A vi elei
(And in dreams)
Ad geveditham
(We will meet again)
Ir in aeer ah eryd dannar
(When the seas and mountains fall)
A telim na veth-in-eraid
(And we come to end of days)
Vi morn, laston ganed
(In the dark I hear a “calling”)
Cân nin ennas
(Calling me there)
Trevedithon ennas
(I will traverse there)
A dan ad
(And back again)
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 12, 2003 06:34
Suilaid,

I am very much a beginner at Sindarin, but even I had some alarm bells going off during the TORN lesson. I am glad to know that my instincts were right.

Gildor, I wouldn't worry too much about the people flocking to those other lessons. The ones who are sincere about really learning will be sticking right here!

Great structured lessons! Great feedback and genuinely friendly people!

Hennaid,
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 12, 2003 07:01
How would you translate this:

May truth be your weapon.
And wisdom the hand that wields it.
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 12, 2003 08:02
Thanks for the comments guys. You are far too kind.

It looks like there is going to be another chat tonight at TORN with this Elostrion. I think I may go and have a listen and ask a few questions
elena_s_g
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 13, 2003 08:25
Suilannon teacher vin!

I hope you don't mind that we are doing quite a bit of advertising of your lessons at elfling. It's the only place with proper Sindarin lessons and we want ot share that information with everyone. Once you've done the correction the rivals won't stand a chance! It's not that they stand a chance now...

...hmm... what's the Sindarin word for "teacher"?... Sorry, I can't do without questions .

Lena



Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 13, 2003 08:36
Le hannon mellon nín

I hope you don't mind that we are doing quite a bit of advertising of your lessons at elfling.


I dont mind at all . Its especially useful on ELFLING because I can get some good feeback and discussion about some of the finer points

...hmm... what's the Sindarin word for "teacher"?... Sorry, I can't do without questions


Lol questions are good . I am not sure we have a word... perhaps we could construct something... will look into it

Orosarniel
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 13, 2003 10:01
...hmm... what's the Sindarin word for "teacher"?... Sorry, I can't do without questions .

Dragon Flame suggests _golwen_ and _idhren_ for the noun "professor". Maybe that can be used for "teacher" as well?

It looks like there is going to be another chat tonight at TORN with this Elostrion. I think I may go and have a listen and ask a few questions

LOL. How did it go, Gildor?
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 13, 2003 10:26
Dragon Flame suggests _golwen_ and _idhren_ for the noun "professor". Maybe that can be used for "teacher" as well?


Oh thats a good one Orosarniel . It all depends on whether we are talking about teachers in a "wise" sense or not..

LOL. How did it go, Gildor?


hehe, it went well for my part at least . I know that at least both Naneth and Iavas were there. Elostrion really does not have much of a clue what he is talking about. He gave several obviously wrong statements throughout the lesson and when I question him about them at the end his(/her?) response was "I think you seem capable of looking those up yourself". He couldnt even tell Naneth what mutation to use with _en_. I felt sorry for the guy. Oh well, I guess it shows how important it is to know your stuff before hand. What also made me mad was the fact that the Mod in charge of "presenting" our questions to him kept ignoring most of my "controversial" ones. :angry:. If you notice, they have yet to post the transcript of this latest lesson on TORN yet. I would not be surprised to find my comments "edited" out of the final draft that gets posted....
Oloriel
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 13, 2003 11:10
Excuse me, but uhh, what's the address for TORN? I wanna know what you're talking about.
elena_s_g
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 13, 2003 11:37
It's all very simple - go to google search, type in "the one ring" and go ahead! Not that it was worth it, though...


Dear Naneth, I thought you might find it interesting. In his commentry to the movie Helge Fauskanger wrote:

"...the ships should be "i chi:r, not "i chair" ( : means long sound, I don't know how to show it better). The plural "ci:r" belongs to the group of nouns in "ai" that have plural forms in "i:". The plural "i:" occurs in the names Ci:rdan and Pelargi:r."

By the way, I can't make out the word "nur". What does it mean? If it means plural of "people", then you use "en", not "in" for genetive with class plural, exactly like Derdzinski in his translation of the same poem "en-gwaith nin". I asked this question to Gildor, he said it should rather be "in". What do you think? Information, please!

Lena
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 13, 2003 12:14
Oloriel - http://www.theonering.net/barlimans/index.html

"...the ships should be "i chi:r, not "i chair"


Quite right, and I bleive Naneth is aware of this. We will be covering this in the advanced lessons, but in some cases we see odd plural formations (this being one of them).

By the way, I can't make out the word "nur". What does it mean? If it means plural of "people", then you use "en", not "in" for genetive with class plural, exactly like Derdzinski in his translation of the same poem "en-gwaith nin". I asked this question to Gildor, he said it should rather be "in". What do you think? Information, please!


The use of _en_ is highly debateable. I just recently emailed Mr. Fauskanger about this subject. I'll post his response when I hear back from him.
AerynJade
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 13, 2003 09:00
Thnx Naneth! FOr the help with the poem. I appreciate it a lot! You actually answered some of my questions without meaning tto! LOL

Keep up the Great Lessons!
Naneth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 14, 2003 08:06
Elena s g ..... If you let me know where I made that mistake with "ships" I can go in and change it. As far as "nûr" goes, it is the word for "race". It is a "singular" word. Legolas would not say "the voices of my races". I used this word because it was the original word thatTenemswe used and I thought it was very appropriate ......more appropriate than "gwaith".
elena_s_g
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 14, 2003 04:20
Dear Naneth,

I think I saw "ships" in that "Nan Aear" song, but I wasn't correcting a mistake! I was more of interested in your opinion as you have much more experience with the language than I do. It's just that sometimes I can't kill a teacher in myself . I know there can be no final authority in here, besides, I'm a linguist and always try to collect as much information as possible. In case with Sindarin - as many points of view (of experts) as possible. Everything I write is for you and Gildor to correct me .

Which works perfectly - now I know another word for "people"!!! (for my dictionary doesn't always work the way I want it to ) Hennaid!

Lena
Naneth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 14, 2003 04:58
No problem Elena s g !! In the poem "Nan Aear", the only reference to a ship is "cair vithren, cair vithren" which means "grey ship, grey ship" so you would not need the plural form.
Aldaron
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 18, 2003 06:16
This is a translation of one of the riddles Gollum asked Bilbo during the Riddle Game (The Hobbit)... something nice and easy for me! :blush: Corrections and suggestions for improvements most greatly welcomed. Le hannon.

This thing all things devours:
Nad hen mâd naid bain:
(This thing eats all things)

Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Aew, levain, gelaidh, loth;
(Birds, animals, trees, flowers)

Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Nâg ang, nâg raud;
(Bites iron, bites metal)

Grinds hard stones to meal;
Damma `ynd nyrn al lith;
(Hammers hard stones to dust)

Slays king, ruins town,
Dâg aran, baugla ost,
(Slays king, oppresses town)

And beats high mountain down.
A dringa dad orod vrand.
(And beats down high mountain.)
sepdet
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 18, 2003 11:30
Aldarion, that's marvellous!
I'm still fairly wet behind the ears, so I can't critique or catch mistakes, but I like it.


I'm very happy... this just came to me with a minimal amount of fiddling, and it's my first poem in meter! As usual, corrections muchly appreciated. There is a "cheat" in the meter in line 4; in Latin "deri ennas" would elide to "der' ennas". I donno if I can get away with that in Elvish, but oh well.

Ithilien

I laiss en-ferin thuiar
I 'wilith lim echui aur.
In brethil peliar dui laiss
An filig linnol deri ennas.
Vi Ithilien, dor lenthir lend
Gorain nestant velethril nín.

The leaves of the beeches breathe
The sparkling air of day's awakening.
The birches spread buds of leaves
For small singing birds to linger there.
In Ithilien, land of tuneful waterfalls
Wandering together heals my beloved.



[Edited on 19/2/2003 by sepdet]
Scattergold
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 19, 2003 06:34
concerning the plural of _cair_...
I stumbled upon this same issue while I was translating the Rhyme of Lore.. and dug up this at Ardalambion:

Special ai-plurals
...it seems that the dipthong ai is normally unchanged in the plural. However, in one small group of words, ai becomes either i (usually long î) or ý in the plural..... The nouns and adjectives in quetion are....cair "ship" (pl. cîr)...


which makes the pural of _cair_ = _cîr_
Hope this helps, if you guys have already figure that out.. excuse my rambling!
sepdet
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 19, 2003 10:47
Okay, one more, then I have to behave myself and stop adding to an already lengthy "short" --SHORT? story I'm writing by throwing in bits of poetry.
Are participles following nouns are lenited like adjectives? I'm only on lesson 2!

The Darkening of Valinor, sung by Galadhrim (hence the Galadriel bias)

A! Tollen gûr na Valannor
Nu goll dhúath e nathron dhonn
Onethelais panna i dhôr
Gelaidh gelaid go linnathon
Nestad. Ai nae ú-amdir dâr.


O! Death is come to Valinor
Under the dark weaver's cloak of shadow.
Yavanna* fills the place
of the Trees of Light with a chant
Of healing. Ah, alas, no hope remains.


Harnannen athan nestad bân
Telpirion a Laurelin.
In edhil sí awarthar Dhûn
Farol i viriath 'arnen
I galad vedui o Aman.


Wounded beyond all healing
Are Telpirion and Laurelin.
The elves there depart the west
Seeking the jewels that held
The last light of Aman.


I aear dholl. Saer dîn manadh.
Aphadar 'lîn e-fast i chîn
Finarfin. Athradar athrad
Chelegnen. Sí falath rhúnen.
Ithil eria. Rym nellar.


The sea is dark. Bitter is their fate.
They follow the gleam of the hair of the children
Of Finarfin. They cross the icy
Passage. There is the eastern shore.
The moon rises. Trumpets ring out.




* I used Oneth + gelais ("plant giver") because I think "Yavanna" is Quenya?

[Edited on 23/2/2003 by sepdet]
sepdet
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 21, 2003 05:21
Quick mutation question...

I have awarthar Dhûn "they leave the west..."
However, I've gotten confused going over Fauskager. dûn is one of those special-case words like (ñ)galadh, right? Does that change the lenition, or is it only with nazalized stops before it that it matters?

I also see at least two soft mutation mistakes in the two poems I wrote... fellow newbies, for practice, I invite you to find them.
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 22, 2003 12:47
Good question sepdet. It does "change" the lenition so to speak. We would use the lenition for a primitive nasalized stop in this case. It has nothing to do with the word before it

Naneth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 22, 2003 01:16
Goodness Aldaron !! That riddle is absolutely perfect as far as I can see !!


Ithilien

I laiss en-ferin thuiar
I 'wilith lim echui aur.
In brethil peliar dui laiss
An filig linnol deri ennas.
Vi Ithilien, dor lenthir lend
Gorain nestant velethril nín.

The leaves of the beeches breathe
The sparkling air of day's awakening.
The birches spread buds of leaves
For small singing birds to linger there.
In Ithilien, land of tuneful waterfalls
Wandering together heals my beloved


Sepdet, this is a great job !! I would just change a few small things here:

I laiss i-ferin (plural article) thuiar

I mrethil (nasal mutation) peliar duiw (spelling) laiss

Af filig (nasal mutation) linnol deri ennas

Vi Ithilien, dôr (just the circumflex) lenthir lend

Gorain nesta (present tense) velethril nín

As Gildor always says, we would probably use a gerund for "lingering" instead of "to linger" but I didn't want to mess up your meter !!
sepdet
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 22, 2003 04:51
Le hannon, hiril!

I had figured out i mrethil finally, but missed the rest.
Also I found one more slip... I forgot to make lend plural.

I laiss i-ferin thuiar
I 'wilith lim echui aur.
I mrethil peliar duiw laiss
Af filig linnol deri ennas.
Vi Ithilien, dôr lenthir lind
Gorain nesta velethril nín.


It's a lullabye. Alas, I sound like a hobbit singing Elvish, but being able to sing in Elvish at all is awfully fun.

I will keep poking at deri ennas, because the meter there is wrong anyway~ it only works if elision is allowed. Also I must keep poking at the Valinor poem; every time I fix a mistake I find another. Ah, newbie-dom.
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: February 22, 2003 05:09
Ah, newbie-dom.


Haha, I promise, its not just newbiedom mellon niin! It so very hard to make ANYTHING rhyme in Sindarin well, we have so few words
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