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foreverfrodo
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 02, 2006 09:02
Ok StrangertotheRain, you made your point and you have your opinion and that's great. But, one, I said nothing about it being Liv's fault. I like Liv, I was complaining about Arwen. And two, read the title of this topic. I Don't like Arwen/Liv This isn't an "I love Arwen" topic.

And where does maturity come into any of this?
StrangertotheRain
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 02, 2006 09:40
I can read what is says, thanks. Now, let me suggest the same to you: notice that this is a critique thread, and not a bashing thread.
I understand that everyone has different opinions. HOWEVER, when people base their opinion off of something they barely seem to know about, it's different. Tell me, how much do you know about Arwen's ancestry, her life, her history? And another reason why I stepped in was HOW you explained your reasons.

Two, reread what you said earlier and tell me whether it sounds mature or not.

EDIT: Oh, and speaking of your rant on maturity, it's very simple. If you want people to take you seriously, construct your argument in a mature manner. If you present it in immature manner that was obviously written by someone with no knowledge of the subject other than pure bashing, people will see you as, well...an immature child.

Thank You.

[Edited on 28/12/2006 by StrangertotheRain]
Dream~Giver
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 02, 2006 09:48
Stranger, frodo, take a deep breath.
And I would like to say, even though this is a topic against the character of Arwen, that doesn't necessarily mean that Arwen-supporters can't come in here and debate. Just something to point out.

But the main reason why I'm posting is because I'm sensing that it's going to get ugly in here soon. Please don't give the moderators a reason to step in. :heart:

~Dream

[Edited on 2/9/2006 by Dream~Giver]
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 03, 2006 04:25
I agree with Dream~Giver. Stranger, frodo, take a breath.

Firstly, foreverfrodo, please do not shout. Capital letters are tantamount to shouting on Forums. Also, bold lettering could be construed as raising one's voice.

As for Arwen. Well, on a personal note, I was not overly happy with her somewhat over exposure in the film, particularly the ride to the Ford, but I lived with it.

She forces herself into scenes and songs..


As Arwen is a *character* in a book, I don't exactly see how she forced herself into anything.

This was the scriptwriters' choice. I think perhaps that more female interest was added into the film in order to bring a more romantic element. LotR, as written by The Professor, was much more a male dominated story.

I agree with Stranger about the Evenstar. People in love do exchange tokens and, if jewellery, wear them. As far as it looking like part of the female anatomy. Well, each to their own interpretation. Personally, I think it looks lovely.

It's good to be able to share with others your reasons why you don't like such and such a character, but this should be done in a rational manner, with good points as to why you do not like them. Not just bash.

So please pack away your soap boxes, sit down and debate.

As Dream~giver has pointed out, don't give the Moderators reasons to step in.

Thanks
Mara
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 03, 2006 06:13
I would like to just post a friendly reminder of some of the rules, and ask, as has already been said, that the thread cool down a little.

4. Be respectful of others.


8. Please refrain from using all caps in your posts--this is considered flaming.


If the thread continues down this path, it will have to be locked, at least temporarily. I understand that this might be a sensitive topic with some people, but please try to post your opinions calmly and respectfully.
Shadowfaxie
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 03, 2006 06:34
During the whole LOTR period I didn't like Arwen much. Now it's been some time so I don't care to bother that much anylonger. but it will ALWAYS enoy me how she gets such a HUGE face on the movie posters when she is hardly in the movies!!! There is many other characters that has bigger roles then her and just because its Liv Tyler doesn't make it just right to have her there. Fine with a small photo of her on a poster but that huge?? Geez. Merry and Pippin I agree should have been there, Eowyn, Theoden... seriously. Arwen??? Wtf... Get out of the way! I feel like those little scenes in TTT is okay to be there, but shorter! That whole Kissy-kissy Aragorn in his dream and stuff... Zzzzz! But I'm SOOOO happy they cut her out of Helm's Deep!! SO GLAD!!! lol

But except from that I'm fine with her... hahaha...
Fattybolger
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 05, 2006 01:29
Isn't the whole thing actually rather simple?

(1) To sell a film, you need crumpet.

(2) The best crumpet should go to the hero.

(3) JRRT didn't provide much crumpet, and the Chief Crumpet (Eowyn) is rejected by the hero, thereby negating the most obvious happy ending. (Personally I think Eowyn got much the best deal and I'd rather have Faramir for a week than Aragorn for ever, but that's only my opinion).

(4) We are supposed to be fairly faithful to the book [hollow laughter], so we don't want to make Eowyn marry the Big Hero.

(5) Therefore there must be alternative crumpet for the big hero.

(6) The only available crumpet is Arwen, who doesn't appear much in the book.

(7) Therefore Arwen's role must be inflated.

( This provides the necessary crumpet.

(9) To assure cinemagoers that the crumpet is available, it needs to go on all the posters.

(10) QED.
Celebne
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 05, 2006 03:02
I think, Tolkien has invented Arwen in a later time, when the books were almost written. PJ had the advantage, that he knew before filming about the couple Arwen/Aragorn.
So he could show the audience the relationship between the couple during the three movies. Unfortunately, most of the new Arwen scenes are ridiculous. First she was a warrior princess and then a crying, little girl.
Fattybolger
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 06, 2006 12:53
To be fair, the main importance of Arwen, to JRRT himself, was probably that she was a later version of Luthien: not a reincarnation (he specifically said she wasn't), but a descendant doomed to re-enact Luthien's fate. And Beren/Luthien was the story of all stories that JRRT most loved.

If you don't know the history of Middle Earth, you can't appreciate the full importance of the Aragorn/Arwen story. Years and years ago, when I first read LoTR, Sil. hadn't been published and nobody knew much about Luthien, so the whole thing remanied mysterious. JRRT probably didn't care much whether his readers got the point or not; it was just part of his vast imaginative schema. The story enriched the book, but it wasn't a main theme.

PJ really couldn't instil that brooding sense of history into the movie - or at least, he didn't try, though of course he had to have some back story (chiefly Isildur). He was threshing around trying to give the Arwen story some meaning, and I agree with you, Celebne, he only succeeded in making her inconsistent - as well as much too conspicuous.

IMO he'd have done better to ditch the Arwen storyline altogether and work up Aragorn/Eowyn. Unfortunately, this would have left FoTR without crumpet (see above).
Celebne
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 06, 2006 02:41
I have heard, that in the first script of PJ for one or two LOTR movies, there was only one 'crumpet' (I like this expression ). A mixture of Arwen and Éowyn.
But then, he was allowed to make three movies and so he changed the script.
Fattybolger
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 07, 2006 01:07
A mixture of Eowyn and Arwen would be some chick.

At least Eowyn, as a rideress of Rohan, might have a better entitlement to ride Glorfindel's horse and kick butt (such an elegant expression!) at Helm's Deep and elsewhere. Might confuse Elrond though:

Chick: Dad, I've met this fabulous guy with a long pedigree and even longer hair and I'm going to marry him, is that OK with you?

Elrond: Like hell it is. First, I'm not at all sure you are my daughter. Golden hair has never run in our family and although my late lamented wife's trips over the mountains to visit her relations were always a pain in the [...], I never had reason to suspect she was carrying on with some blond sylvanian. Until now. Secondly, if you are my daughter, which for the purposes of negotiation I am willing temporarily to assume, there's no way you are marrying any pipe-toting mortal who doesn't seem to have shaved or washed for at least a month. Go and pack this minute and get off to Valinor and don't come back until you know who you are. And bring your birth certificate countersigned by Manwe.

Aragorn: Now look here, I just overthrew Sauron and made myself king of Gondor, Arnor and everywhere else, are you saying that's an insufficient qualification?

Moviemir (pathetically): wasn't I supposed to get a share of this female?

Everybody else: Shut up, Moviemir, nobody asked you.
Celebne
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 07, 2006 07:26
It seems, you don't like Faramir, Fattybolger. He is a great character in the books. His character in the movies is a bit changed, but Aragorn's character is more changed. I don't understand, why people rant about Faramir.
It's a pity, that this chick should marry up with Moviegorn. He is not kingly and noble - he is only a 'Rambo' fighting machine.
Fattybolger
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 07, 2006 11:25
Moviemir ain't my favourite, but I'm OK with the book version, viz:

Book Faramir: As our friends with the bark and the hypertrophic toes are so fond of saying, let us not be hasty. I find it clearly set down that fair-haired females found wandering on Gondorian battlefields are my prerogative.

Chick (suspiciously) You got a pedigree?

B.F. (coolly) It may not be as long as his, but I can produce documentary evidence of 26 lineal ancestors all of whom held high ministerial office with governmental responsibilities, plus an unspecified number of antecedent Numenoreans, subject to verification on demand. That do?

Chick (looks him up and down, observing drop-dead good looks, pale but interesting countenance, combination of high moral standards with devastating sexiness, and general tidiness): Guess so.

B.F. You coming then?

Chick (pausing only to tear up her ticket to Valinor and stow a couple of extra sets of elegant underwear into her suitcase): Yep.

(They go off arm in arm.)

Aragorn (sourly): Well, whoever has an identity crisis, I don't think it's her.

Moviemir (unhappily): I think it may be me.

Aragorn (kindly): Why's that, sonny?

Moviemir: I think there's two of me.

Aragorn and Elrond (in one breath): It's funny you should say that...
Celebne
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 07, 2006 11:51
Nice story. Is it possible, that we know us from another boards? I think there is only one person in the whole internet, who has so much problems with Faramir in the movies. Btw, Moviemir is a nasty word, like Bookamir. *shudders*

[Edited on 8/9/2006 by Celebne]
Fattybolger
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 08, 2006 12:13
Could be, could be. Anyway, we all have our likes and dislikes, some stronger than others. Like Movie Arwen: as eyecandy, fine. As an element in the re-vamped plot, no way.
Child_of_Lúthien
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: November 07, 2006 11:57
I like what Arwen represents in both the books and the movies, although I can understand how she doesn't fit in quite right in the movies as a character so re-vamped.

[Edited on 7/11/2006 by Child_of_Lúthien]
Lady~Eowyn
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: November 13, 2006 01:19
Personally, I think the film Arwen's role seems to be overplayed, overrated. I think there was a bit too much emphasis on her role, and her part in the films as a whole. If you look at the official film covers and posters, you see Arwen, on all three, while other more important characters were neglected. Yes, Arwen is the love interest, hence she would attract more female viewers. Not that I don't like her, but there were other characters more deserving of advertising/commerical attention.
Pipina
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: December 31, 2006 08:57
I didn't like the expanded Arwen's role in the film. But I'm not saying she has not to appear: if I'd do a film about Lotr, I would put her (who hadn't read the book wouldn't understand), but for a minor role.
Some scenes in PJ's version are exagerate, in the posters she's always there, while Merry and Pippin are often forgotten.
heri_sinyë
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: January 01, 2007 08:07
I can't say I hated Arwen's role in the films, it was quite ok and I can understand that she got such an extended role (if you compare it with her role in the books). But it really didn't fit with the Arwen I had imagined through the books. I actually think Liv Tyler did a nice work.
And to me it's quite obvious why she got to be on the posters, come on people, didn't you notice she's a goodlooking, famous actress?? (guys really like that kind of things!)
NiennaAlcarin
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: January 02, 2007 09:40
I used to love her - I wanted her face so bad. lol

I think she was great as Arwen. Her acting, look, accent, expressions, everything... were great. I loved her for years.

I don't like her as much now but she's still cool and I don't mind her.
Elfstone_and_Evenstar
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: November 16, 2007 01:55
Arwen was easily my least favorite "good" character.It's not Liv Tyler that bugs me, it's they way she was writtien. They justified that they didn't have to put a sword in Arwen's hand to make her strong. They WHY DID THEY???


Liv said that in the TTT EE, AFTER they had decided to cut Arwen from Helm's Deep (thank goodness!). They were still trying to get a handle on just who she was, on her personality, and it was after they cut Arwen from HD that they realized her strength came from within. Liv was trying to express what they had just discovered about Arwens' character.

crystalarwen
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 13, 2009 03:35
Arwen's part worked beautifully. PJ did a splendid job introducing her, her role isn't that big, and Liv plays the part so enchantingly that you are almost convinced Liv is part elf. Not to mention Arwen's role cleared up the confusion why Aragorn couldn't be with Eowyn. In the books it wasn't that clear why Aragorn wasn't going for her; however, Jackson allowed us to understand it. Arwen's part worked.
ValinorElf
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 15, 2009 02:16
I like Arwen and think that Liv Tyler did a great job portraying her and making her an intersting character, but I do have to admit that I think Arwen had a little too much attention when it came to movie posters/covers and stuff like that. I hope she has a role is in The Hobbit movie, but I hope she isn't on the movie cover and takes attention away from the other characters who were in the book.
Dream~Giver
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: October 12, 2009 03:10
I like Arwen and think that Liv Tyler did a great job portraying her and making her an intersting character, but I do have to admit that I think Arwen had a little too much attention when it came to movie posters/covers and stuff like that. I hope she has a role is in The Hobbit movie, but I hope she isn't on the movie cover and takes attention away from the other characters who were in the book.


Arwen has no purpose in the Hobbit's storyline, and as much as I love Liv and her portrayal of Arwen, I really don't see what role she would serve in the Hobbit, or how she would even fit into it. However, I wouldn't mind her making a very brief cameo appearance, but no more than that. Just my humble opinion.
glamdring22
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: October 20, 2009 02:19
agree
LOTR_obsessed_loony
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: October 24, 2009 12:37
It's not Arwen I dislike, per se, it's just the way she is in the film. The way PJ and co. seem to have tried to turn her into a huge main character, and the number and awkward positioning of her scenes, is something I find incredibly annoying. For example, you go from a huge battle scene, or some Frodo-Sam-Gollum drama, to an uncanonical, unneeded Arwen scene. And really, she doesn't do enough in those scenes to justify them. She doesn't even do the one thing that would have fitted in with her book character and sew Aragorn's banner.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want her cut out completely, but I feel that in this matter the films really should have been a lot more canonical. The romance scenes/flashbacks don't really add anything to the overall brilliance of the films (is there really anyone around whose favourite scenes are those ones?) and she does have a fairly major, though more sort of "behind-the-scenes" part in the book, as several people have already pointed out (I'm sorry, I have looked, but I can't find the exact posts so don't know who made them). I think PJ could have just stuck to what was already there without damaging his films too much. In fact, he may have improved the films. After all, LOTR wasn't a romancey book. It shouldn't have been turned (partly) into a romancey film.
And I'm resisting the urge to go slightly off-topic and start ranting about the Evenstar... All I'm going to say is that its over-inflated role (actually, completely fabricated role) really annoys me also. I have to say I agree with most of what foreverfrodo wrote about it. (Apart from the bit about what it looks like.)
So that's me finished for now. Thanks for reading.
"...Though thereafter we may walk in the shadows, I will not go forth as a thief in the night." – Boromir, FotR, The Ring Goes South Image Image Image Image Image
glamdring22
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: October 25, 2009 12:23
Great way to put it! I liked Arwen in the books, but they overdid her part in the movie. Eowyn played a bigger role in the books, and they didn't give give her the attention in the movie that they gave Arwen. Not to mention that Arwen stole Glorfindel's role, which was really really awful I think.
pitya
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: October 30, 2009 04:10
I loved Liv Tyler as Arwen, the problem I had was with the script. Arwen Warrior Princess was just so different from what Tolkien wrote in the books.

It really detracted from the dichotomy of femininity Tolkien created, I think. In the books you had both the Fairy Princess and the Independent Warrior in distinctly separate roles; in the movie, PJ blurred the line between them in order to make it more accessible to the modern audience.

It's not that Tolkien thought women weren't capable of fighting. Luthien, Galadriel, and Eowyn prove that. But that's not how he wrote Arwen's character.
ValinorElf
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: November 10, 2009 05:04
I like Arwen and think that Liv Tyler did a great job portraying her and making her an intersting character, but I do have to admit that I think Arwen had a little too much attention when it came to movie posters/covers and stuff like that. I hope she has a role is in The Hobbit movie, but I hope she isn't on the movie cover and takes attention away from the other characters who were in the book.


Arwen has no purpose in the Hobbit's storyline, and as much as I love Liv and her portrayal of Arwen, I really don't see what role she would serve in the Hobbit, or how she would even fit into it. However, I wouldn't mind her making a very brief cameo appearance, but no more than that. Just my humble opinion.


I totally agree with you. I think it would mess up the story if Arwen had a large role in the Hobbit movie - I can only see her having a small role. If she is in the movie, I don't think she'll have a plot like she did in the LOTR movies.
peamaps
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: October 22, 2011 05:46
It was a terrible idea, I didn't like Liv or Arwen and PJ messed too much.
Specially to make Haldir more important than he was in the book to...KILL him???????no!! hahaha, it was so sad, he made us fall in love to the 2nd hottest elf to take him away from us.

Careful guys, he's creating a new elven woman. go to his fb page and tell him to stop, it's Glorfindel and the Twins erased from existence all over again. Now he is creating...he's not good at it.
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