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Figwit
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Post Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 21, 2003 07:28
I have one very huge comment to make here: I wanted the Green Dragon in the theatrical version! Why wasn't it in there? Less Elves, more cheerful Hobbits! I don't get it, really...

And another lousy question: did you like how Sam, Merry and Pippin were introduced here?

Oh, and another one: Ian Holm's performance, when he leaves but doesn't want to leave the Ring behind, was mind-blowing... as was Ian McKellen's when he's sitting by the fire and asks Frodo for the Ring: he wants to seem friendly, but he really looks troubled and a bit frightened...


Poll's a very simple question, which part did you like best?
Lintelómiel
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 21, 2003 09:07
I voted for Bilbo's birthday party. The firework display is great, as is the music the hobbits are dancing on, as is Ian McKellen being the happy, funloving wizard ('whee! off they go!'), as are Merry and Pippin co-operating while stealing one of the rockets, as is Bilbo telling stories to the (cute!) hobbit children... The whole atmosphere is just so great! A last bit of fun and light-heartedness before the depressing part of the movie begins, that is why I love it.

The Green Dragon was nice, but it was anything but crucial for the storyline. True, nice characterization for the hobbits, but not indispensable. Bilbo's departure is the part I love second best; excellent interaction between the two Ian's there! Still, I voted for the party. It still makes me smile, even after having seen it about 50 times.
drunken_elf
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 21, 2003 09:51
The Birthday Party and the Green Dragon are two of my favourite scenes....ever... Although I do say that about every scene...But I loved the Birthday Party, because it just makes me smile seeing the hobbits dancing and celebrating. Then when the EE came out, I fell in love with the Green Dragon for similar reasons: it shows the hobbits behaving as hobbits. I really agree Figwit that it should have been in the theatrical version - but still, I can watch it every day now anyway. And of course, these two scenes are classic Merry & Pippin scenes!

I also love in Bilbo's speech how he says 111th!
Eothain222
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 22, 2003 06:00
I love the green dragon scene (which i voted for) and bilbo's party. I loved the fireworks and the music! I was very dissapointed when i heard the FoTR soundtrack and it didn't have that song!

btw, i think you should have done one for the party alone as there's lots of things there: the story telling to the children, merry+ pippin and the dragon firework, the fireworks, the music, the speech and the dancing.

[Edited on 22/5/2003 by Eothain222]
Faramirs_first_kiss
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 22, 2003 06:22
I voted for the party because it is when the film comes back to life after slowing down a bit for Concerning Hobbits. Imho, this scene shows enough about hobbits in general and Merry and Pippin in particular to warrant leaving out the Green Dragon: they can dance and sing, be mischevious and crafty, slow-witted and unpleasant, but mainly they like having fun! Don't get me wrong, I love the Green Dragon, particularly the song (interesting combination of songs from the book, by the way) and this bit:
Hobbit: Far-off tales and children's stories, that's all that is. You're beginning to sound like that old Bilbo Baggins. Cracked, he was.
Hobbit: Young Mr Frodo, here, he's cracking!
Frodo: And proud of it! Cheers, Gaffer!
It's like me and LOTR!

Also, I have to agree with everyone who's complemented Ians Holm and McKellen. What you see there are two of the finest actors alive today excellently portraying some very complex characters. Tiny little nuances of body language show their thoughts and feelings behind the script, and for most hardened cinema-goers this is where they stop wondering how it is done and actually settle down to watch a fantastic film.

I have to mention the stunning introduction of the Ringwraiths before the Green Dragon, riding forth from the awesome tower. You miss the significance of it unless you know what you're watching for, and you have the scene where Gandalf finds Isildur's scroll to forget about it before the Wraith turns up at Farmer Maggot's and asks for Bagginsss. Cleverly done, I say.
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 22, 2003 08:05
I really enjoy the scene with Frodo and Gandalf after Bilbo has left. That's the one I voted for. You really start to get into the meat of the story.

I loved the Green Dragon. I too, thought it should have been in the theatrical version. I would have rather seen that then Merry and Pippin stealing the fireworks. I thought that part was too silly. All in all the introductions of Merry, Pippin and Sam are okay.

Bilbo's birthday party, although not one of my favorite parts..is done well. It almost felt like you could have been there. Reminded me of huge outdoor barbeques of my childhood. It really captured the magic of that sort of gathering.

Another part from the EE DVD that I liked was Bilbo talking to Frodo before his farewell speech. It added some depth to their relationship.

That's all I can think of for now...
Frodo_007
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 22, 2003 08:27
i loved Bilbo's Birthday Party the best!!!i loved the fireworks and that funny scene where Merry & Pippin steal that dragon firework!!!
Figwit
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 23, 2003 02:02


btw, i think you should have done one for the party alone as there's lots of things there: the story telling to the children, merry+ pippin and the dragon firework, the fireworks, the music, the speech and the dancing.

~ Eothain222


yes Eothain, I thought about that too at first, but I thought maybe it was too much detail... I'll try to think of it next time

You know, I still don't like Merry and Pippin's introduction. Okay, they're mischevous and it's a fun scene to watch (especially Billy Boyd's infamous squeek), but I think it does them short... that they're kinda reduced to singing, beer drinking and crop stealing jesters... I was disappointed about that.

One of my favourite parts is where Bilbo tells the story of the Trolls to the Hobbit children: Katie Jackson's face is priceless!
Lady-Arwen
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 23, 2003 02:23
I am torn (as I think almost everyone is) between The Party and the Green Dragon. I guess in the end I like the party best just because there was more to it. See I am like a TOTAL Rosie Cotton fanatic! (yes we do exsist ;D ) So I LOVED the part with her and Sam dancing and of course her in the Green Dragon.

But I also ADORED the little hobbit children. (especially Katie and Billy)

Plus I just liked seeing all the hobbits in their comfortable surroundings, just all being happy and excited. The more I watch this scene the more I see little details I hadn't noticed before.

I also loved the music! It was just SO cheerful it's only too bad they didn't put it on the soundtrack

Lastly I really liked seeing Gandalf in this atmosphere, it was one with which he was completely at ease and seeing him dancing or drinking out of those dinky mugs or setting off fireworks for little kids really added to the overall sense that the Shire is one of the few places where everyone can just have fun and not worry.

...thanks to Aragorn and all his Dunedain friends, but we aren't supposed to know that

Anyway, it was a great sequence!

~*~Lady Arwen
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 23, 2003 02:27
i have to echo figwit here and say that ian holm was amazing... his whole potrayel of bilbo from the moment we met him was just perfect. i loved the way he played the speech slightly drunk and the way he left after the ring... kind of shouldering his pack and looking suddenly free and ready for more adventure but sad too... ahhh lovely!

in general the hobbits at the party and the whole atmosphere was great, busy, fun and carefree very hobbitish. i was however dissapointed with the whole introduction of merry and pippin, it was just hmmmm not very "them" in the book of course their decisions were well thought out... at least in hobbit terms they were., they knew what they were doing but the whole way they were introduced just didnt make much sense... why would frodo hang out with them and allow them on the journey? the green dragon helped this a bit i guess and i would have loved to see it in the main film, but as someone pointed out it wasnt that essential to the plot i guess.


figwit- thanks, i havent talked or even had time to think about the film recently... its strange and thought provoking to think of it again!
Figwit
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 23, 2003 02:44
you're welcome k :love:
Cressida
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 28, 2003 05:01
It was a tough choice, but I voted for the birthday party because it has great little moments from everybody instead of focusing on just one or two characters.
Simbelmyne
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 29, 2003 01:52
I chose the party scene. I loved some of the hobbit music, the funky frodo chicken dance...no, really, I'm serious!

But I really loved Bilbo's departure. It was just a great piece of acting, from both Ians. They weren't just Holm and McKellen playing Bilbo and Gandalf: they were Bilbo and Gandalf.

I really liked seeing the Green Dragon because I think it's always really good to see a few sequences that introduce the characters more, a good embellishment to something, a touch from someone else that blends seamlessly and still adds something new.

I would have liked to see it in the version shown in cinemas, but I don't think I would have been too happy to see it put in, and cause a favourite scene to be pushed out. Though I like it a lot, and could quite happily have sat through a day's worth of LOTR with almost no breaks, I don't think it's good enough to push another sequence out without regretting it.
sepdet
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 30, 2003 09:30
Sorry I've been astray so much lately (Ramalassë knows where ) but I had to vote almost arbitrarily, because to me, apart from the addition of Bilbo acting a little weird and selfishly at Frodo, all of this was perfect.

Faramir'skiss made a point I like: the Green Dragon scene established "hobbits" more effectively and artistically than the introduction "Concerning Hobbits", getting the ideas across without the stupidity of the ear-booger hobbit that so irked me. Oddly, this is one of those rare moments where I'm forgetting canon-- not because of the films, but because of that BBC radio version of which I'm so fond! After a similar but shorter prologue about the forging of the Rings, the first "scene" in the radio play is the Green Dragon; the birthday party is a flashback. Is that also true of the book? Scarily I can't remember (though it's easy enough for me to check)!

I almost wish the Green Dragon scene had come before the party in the movie, because it introduces Merry and Pip by doing something they really do in the book, singing, rather than something they don't, pranks. But I suppose it's important to get Frodo established first, since he's the primary character besides Aragorn, and also to show what he's like before the Ring starts wrecking the poor boy. His innocence is important. His being "master of Bag-end", confident, competent, and "the best Hobbit in the SHire" is also important, and FFK is right: the way he deals with the hobbits' criticism, with good-natured grace, humor, and unselfconsciously, speaks very well of his character. He's not the least bit bothered by them, and he's able to interact with them normally and on their own terms, not to mention buy them drinks! Would that all of us could deal with hostile criticism so welll.

I like the way Sam and Rosie are established at the party because there, PJ is working within the framework of Tolkien, not bending it and adding on extra rooms. What I mean is that the narrative describes some of the party in general terms, not specifics, so there is room to "fill in" and flesh out incidents like that rather telling moment between Frodo, Sam, and Rosie. Brief but useful. Merry and Pippin's stealing of Gandalf's fireworks, on the other hand, is more "outside the framework", because we wind up with Gandalf setting them to work washing dishes: somehow I don't see him as Hobbit Truant Officer.

The interaction between Frodo and Gandalf is wonderful, beautiful; I could watch it a million times. Ian Holm and McKellan are of course in a class by themselves. But the rhythm and pacing between Frodo and Gandalf is also a sort of dance: Elijah Wood modulates his voice, emotions, expressions, tone, and everything incredibly well for so young an actor, from "He's gone, isn't he," to "I don't understand!" (Although I'm confusing some of his performance here with the "Shadow of the Past" scene, where he's even better).

Bilbo's farewell speech is marvellous because it is his farewell speech. Jackson often departs from Tolkien. But for most of that speech, albeit somewhat abridged (I miss the "purposes" line), he is simply bringing Tolkien's words to life, or rather Holm is, and his delivery of "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like" is, in my mind, definitive; I shall forever after read that line and think of Holm's delivery and accompanying gesture.

But I voted for Bilbo and Gandalf, not just because of the incredible acting-- and musical score; the music when Bilbo is trying to drop the ring is amazing-- but because they established something very, very difficult to do: past history not in the movie. It's important for the opening sequence to establish Frodo as a strong and capable character (wish he'd stayed so a bit longer). It's less important, but valuable, to explain why Bilbo matters. He's not at the Council of ELrond, later on, so we never hear him called a hero; he's almost irrelevent to these movies. (Sad but understandable: you really don't need to know much about Bilbo to understand why the Ring is dangerous and what the Quest is about).

However, that moment when Bilbo steps out onto his porch, twitching a little from the strain of letting go of the Ring, to the moment he walks off--those few seconds utterly establish why Bilbo is so beloved, with almost no words. "I've thought of an ending for my book!" is so very Bilbo: acknowledging that a great burden has passed from him, but in such an ordinary way we're not sure if he even realizes it consciously. The look he shares with Gandalf is that of "very old friends", and there is an incredible magic between them at that moment. You see what Gandalf sees in Bilbo. You see respect for the old Hobbit, and a sharpness in Bilbo's eye that's lacking earlier in the film-- he seems a bit muddled up until then, less mature. And he walks off singing.

The movie tells us almost nothing of Bilbo and Gandalf's time together. Those few seconds, somehow, implied and made "real" decades of unspoken history, so that suddenly the audience loves Bilbo too, without really knowing why, and share in Frodo's delight when they see the old Hobbit again, if only for a short time. It is hard to make a character so beloved, and so memorable, with so little.
Figwit
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: May 30, 2003 07:47
I almost wish the Green Dragon scene had come before the party in the movie, because it introduces Merry and Pip by doing something they really do in the book, singing, rather than something they don't, pranks. ~sepdet


first of all, wow sepdet, great analysis

and I don't even disagree with anything that's a first

You know, in a way you're right, but their introduction as 'pranksters' is not what bothers me most: it's the way they end up in this quest. It seems more like their literally tumbling into the story, and the clsoe friendship between Frodo, Merry and Pippin is never very obvious, not even in the scene in the Green Dragon.

But it's true that it defines Hobbitness (as Faramirs First Kiss said) ánd the essence of Being Merry & Pippin in a much better way than the previous scenes. Especially because you also get 'random Hobbits', and the contrast between the kindness and openmindedness of our quartet and the somewhat shallow gossip of the others shows something about the Hobbits I always found fascinating: the internal contradiction in the way Tolkien describes them - both generous and selfish, both hospitable and prejudiced, both fun-loving and not able to live with someone who doesn't fit the norm.
There a people of storytellers, but they can't stand heroes amongst them. Somehow I found resonance of that in this scene.
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Post RE: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo's Birthday Party / Bilbo's departure / The Green Dragon
on: April 15, 2008 09:47
something about the Hobbits I always found fascinating: the internal contradiction in the way Tolkien describes them - both generous and selfish, both hospitable and prejudiced, both fun-loving and not able to live with someone who doesn't fit the norm.
I've just discovered this thread and have to say I agree with Figwit on most points.

I actually live in a tiny village in Derbyshire UK and in countryside so like the Shire that I am truly blessed. The contrasts Figwit describes are true except perhaps for the last. I don't think there is a *norm* here in Taddington. (After all, they've put up with me for 16 years.) The point is that when necessary everyone pulls together whatever their other differences. Our *well-dressing* festival in August is the proof.

The hobbits round the table in the Green Dragon are so like a scene from the Taddington Queen's Arms, that it always makes me smile.
Sassyfriend
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Post Re: Sequence by sequence #3: Bilbo
on: September 20, 2012 09:36
loved all of it but the green dragon is the best part i think
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