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LOTR_obsessed_loony
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: March 01, 2008 08:59
There was a lot of stuff on the last page about mortals becoming immortal once they got to Valinor. Apparently, it couldn't happen. However I would like to contest that by pointing out that another name for Valinor is the Undying Lands. Doesn't that mean that people can't die there? Ergo, it must mean that yes, mortals would become immortal when they reached there. Savvy?
Just wanted to point that out.
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Dolwen
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: March 01, 2008 02:21
No mortals do not become immortal when they go to Valinor. Tolkien specifically said this to be true in Letters. I believe part of it was quoted on the second page but here it is:

Letters of Jrr Tolkien Letter #154:

"I have said nothing about it in this book(LotR), but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their kind cannot be changed forever, this is strictly a temporary reward (sailing West): a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will die--of free will, and leave the world"

I would think that Undying Lands would meant just that the lands and the natural inhabitants do not die. Very few mortals were allowed to go and only under special circumstances.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: March 01, 2008 10:13
Thanks Dolwen!

Also, I think Tolkien pointed out somewhere else that it is the lands themselves that are undying, and that they do not confer immortality on those that go there.
GlörfindelTelesunda
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: November 08, 2008 07:23
In the prologue of the Fellowship of the Ring (book) Tolkien talks in more detail about hobbits and their history and he also mentions what happened after the War of the Ring in the Shire. He says that after Elrond left his two sons stayed behind in Rivendell with Celeborn for a while and then they sailed over the seas to Valinor. So it doesn't sound like they chose Mortality but continued being Immortal.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: November 08, 2008 10:47
Welcome to CoE and the Books Forum GlorfindelTelesunda. I see you joined quite recently, and I hope you will enjoy being a member.
In the prologue of the Fellowship of the Ring (book) Tolkien talks in more detail about hobbits and their history and he also mentions what happened after the War of the Ring in the Shire.
Throughout his writing Tolkien maintains the fiction of having access to copies of ancient records, in this case the Shire. This allows him to tantalise us with all manner of ambiguities and the final paragraphs of the Prologue are a fine example. I love the way he challenges us. Of Rivendell he says
There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained together with some of the High Elven folk.
... so it seems they didn't sail with Elrond. But did they ever sail?

Aragorn on his death-bed mentions "the garden of Elrond where none now walk." but even that does not mean that Rivendell is deserted. The garden may be overgrown and inaccessible, ... returned to nature.
It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle Earth.
Tolkien is being ambiguous here. Does he mean there is no record of Celeborn leaving, or just no record of the date? I think it is the latter. It is highly unlikely that Celeborn would choose not to join his beloved at some point, so I think Tolkien means that there is nothing in the Shire Records concerning his departure.

The final statement is more problematical. Even if Celeborn was the last elder-day elf to leave, he can only carry the last memory if all the ents are gone, and of course Cirdan, who is about the most senior elf left at the end of LotR.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: November 09, 2008 04:49
I'm pretty sure that the only one of Elrond's children to choose mortality was Arwen. His sons may have stayed in Middle-earth that that doesn't mean that they gave up their immortality. They could just stay behind in Rivendel or East Lorien and live amongst the Elves that didn't want to leave, which would have also included most of Thranduil's people.

As to celeborn taking with him the last memory of the Elder Days, while the Ents were still around, that can still be considered accurate if the Ents mostly stayed in their forests and weren't all that involved with the Elves. They wouldn't have many memories of what the Elder days were like for the Elves or Men of that time.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: November 09, 2008 05:37
Actually, it did occur ro me after I'd posted, that the ents might not have been very interested in the concerns of elves, at least where it did not impinge upon themselves.

Eladan and Elrohor could indeed have hung around, riding with the Dunedain, supporting the King and their sister, and generally aiding the establishment of the Reunited Kingdom.

... but as for Cirdan ... my heart tells me that he is still here.
cirdaneth
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on: June 17, 2014 12:31
*bump
Ireth_Telrunya
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: April 16, 2015 09:24
cirdaneth said:Actually, it did occur ro me after I'd posted, that the ents might not have been very interested in the concerns of elves, at least where it did not impinge upon themselves.

Eladan and Elrohor could indeed have hung around, riding with the Dunedain, supporting the King and their sister, and generally aiding the establishment of the Reunited Kingdom.

... but as for Cirdan ... my heart tells me that he is still here.


Sorry if I'm bursting your bubble, but Cirdan is the one who built the "last ship" that Frodo and the other Ring-keepers sailed West on. He went with them into Aman, as he had longed to do ever since the First Age.
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Lindarielwen
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on: April 21, 2015 12:18
The ship that took Frodo to the West was not the last ship to leave Middle-earth. There were many others afterwards because there were still Elves in Middle-earth.

Since Sam was also a ring bearer he sailed to the West and reunited with Frodo after Rosie died and Cirdan, most likely, would have been the one to take Sam there.

A ship was built by Legolas and he and Gimli sailed to Valinor.

Celeborn did not take the ship with Galadriel and it is said that he, along with Cirdan, left Middle-earth sometime during the Fourth Age.

And others think Cirdan never left the Grey Havens so who knows? It is all a matter of interpretation. Tolkien never really made it clear what happened...as least I could not find it.
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Elthir
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on: April 21, 2015 11:12
I think Cirdan sailed with Frodo and Gandalf and Elrond, and the "last ship" is a poetic fashioning rather than being litreral with respect to "last".

Appendix F describes the Eldar as being like kings among the Quendi, but of the Eldar it is noted (here) "who now are gone". ["... among them the Eldar were as Kings, who now are gone"]

This could be poetic, but even if not the time reference is modern, as the writer of this section, Appendix F "On Translation", is Tolkien himself in the 1950s, playing the role of translator of the modern book...

... thus even if it's literal there are centuries upon centuries after Frodo sailed for the Eldar (which does not mean all Elves here) to be gone before the 1950s.

When then, did Cirdan leave?

Appendix A:

"At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the Shipwright, and some say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sets sail into the West. In the days of the Kings most of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth dwelt with Cirdan or in the seaward lands of Lindon. If any now remain they are few."


Another "now" but this is not Tolkien speaking here. This passage (found in Eriador, Arnor, and The Heirs of Isildur) is in quotation marks and is thus intended to be seen as an "actual extract" from longer annals and tales.

So who wrote it, a Hobbit it seems, noting that it includes the statement "before we came to the Shire", but more importantly when was it written? And would a Hobbit author know for sure?

I haven't tried to find out when this could have been written, but I do note it is Last Ship here (in my edition anyway), and in Appendix B it is last ship rather, where Cirdan says to Gandalf...
"I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."


According to Of The Rings of Power And the Third Age the last ship appears to certainly be the one Gandalf and Frodo sailed upon (see below).

Before Aragorn passes on he describes the gardens of Elrond "where none now walk", yet Note On The Shire Records explains that though Elrond had now departed, his sons "long remained" with some of the High Elven folk. And of Celeborn it is said that he went to dwell there after Galadriel departed: "... but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth"

Hmm, well Cirdan and other High Elves could be said to have a living memory of the Elder Days, so I think the implication here, if again put in poetic terms and with respect to Elves, is that Cirdan too had passed. But it doesn't seem that long, for Elves, if the garden of Imladris was truly empty by the time of Aragorn's passing!

"... and I will dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I shall await thee."

Of The Rings Of Power and The Third Age


Similiar to what is said in Appendix B, but here this "last ship" surely seems to be the one upon which Elrond and Gandalf sailed...

"White was that ship and long was it a-building, and long it awaited the end of which Cirdan had spoke. But when all these things were done (...) and latest of all the Keepers of the Three Rings rode to the Sea, and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready."



But strangely this passage (in the part I edited for brevity) also describes that the last of the Noldor set sail before Elrond, noting that Tolkien had published that some of the High Elves had remained after Elrond sailed. Perhaps Tolkien, if he had published Of The Rings Of Power himself, would have revised that much? Or was this meant to be an internal confusion?

The question of "High Elves" possibly including the Sindar, in some passages at least, aside for the moment!

In my opinion, so far the Cirdan question is not specifically solved. So why did I write all this? I don't know! But there's even more.

For myself I see no great reason for Cirdan to have stayed after Elrond sailed. Why not sail with Galadriel and Elrond, as a former Ringbearer himself, and one of the Eldar? On the other hand it seems romantic enough to think of him waiting until a literal last ship, I admit, and there is that attraction I guess.

In a very late text Tolkien noted that Cirdan greatly longed to pass Over Sea in the First Age! Cirdan sees the light of Eressea as it vanishes into the West...

Then he cried aloud: "I will follow that light, alone if none will come with me, for the ship that I have been building is now almost ready."

JRRT, Cirdan, Last Writings


But Cirdan then receives a message in his heart to stay, which he knew came from the Valar, warning him not to attempt this peril, as he wasn't ready yet. And:

"Abide now that time [the time before he will be ready], for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth..."


Cirdan obeys, and sees a vision of the ship of Earendil.
"And from that night onwards Cirdan received a foresight touching upon all matters of importance, beyond the measure of all other Elves upon Middle-earth."


Nice! But Tolkien stops short of telling the reader why Cirdan stayed after Earendil's voyage. If indeed it was his great desire to sail West, why stay so long after?

Did he change his mind, perhaps based on receiving another message from the Valar? Did his foresight perhaps include giving a Ring of Power to Gandalf?

All we know for sure is that Cirdan did stay, at least until he met Gandalf again after the One was destroyed.

My guess is that he finally sailed with Gandalf...

... which I think I said earlier, and could have ended with that

[Edited on 04/22/2015 by Elthir]
Lindarielwen
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on: April 22, 2015 02:48
You know, I find all this quite interesting but...

I wonder what all this has to do with the topic of this thread...When an Elf and a mortal marry?

We started talking about the ships leaving for some reason. Nothing to do with the topic.

And as you said, Elthir..."My guess is that he finally sailed with Gandalf." It is all speculation....Oh, you never mentioned Sam. Who did he sail with?
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Elthir
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on: April 22, 2015 07:24
Yes, among the Fairbairns there is the tradition handed down from Elanor that Sam "... passed Over Sea, last of the Ringbearers."

To me it essentially fits in with High Elves remaining but who eventually would sail after Elrond, and Legolas' ship who sailed after Elrond, but none of these examples explains Cirdan however, or necessarily...

... unless maybe one wants to interpret (emphasize) that to mean last of the Ringbearers to pass Over Sea, and include Cirdan as a Ringbearer.

Even if so that need not mean Cirdan went with Sam, as he might already have left, but it chimes in with my interpretation of it all...

... again, despite the attractive romance of Cirdan waiting for a literal last ship, the time of the Elves had already waned in the Third Age. In the end Sauron was gone, Men would basically inherit Middle-earth and increase, while the "fantastic folk" continue to dwindle and fade.

Time for Cirdan to greet Olwe Over Sea (when Elrond sailed)?

I think so

[Edited on 04/22/2015 by Elthir]
Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: April 24, 2015 01:50
Luthien did not have to become mortal to marry Beren. Remember that immortal Elves can still die temporarily, of grief or wound. When an Elf dies, it dosn't become a mortal, and its immortal spirit is still part of the world. When Beren was slain, Luthien voluntarily gave up her life to seek him, although they would have been separated in death if the Valar had not responded to her plea. She was then given the opportunity to continue her immortal life without Beren, or to share her life force (my wording) with Beren so that they would be returned to life, and they would live together as mortals and pass beyond the world as mortals.

Idril did not have to give up immortality to marry Tuor, nor did she ever. Their fate is a mystery after they sailed, but Tolkien gives us the beautiful and wondrous words "But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved, and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men."

Tolkien never said this, but its almost like Tuor was joined to the Eldar to replace the loss of Luthien.

It is my understanding that it was necessary for Arwen to choose because she inherited the Halfelven choice. As some of you said, the main reason she would wish to be mortal is to be with Aragorn forever . . . wow. If she remained immortal but died of grief, they would be parted after death. Other Elves do not have this choice, even if they wish for it. I did not understand about the different afterlives the first time I read the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, and I found it very bitter. But when I learned of this years later, I understood the story completely differently. Arwen's love and faith are so great, I can scarcely comprehend it.
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cirdaneth
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on: April 24, 2015 04:08
That's it in a nutshell, more or less. Thank you Elfeawen. As for Cirdan, I think we have a thread for him somewhere. I'll check it out and "bump" it.
Gandolorin
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on: April 26, 2015 02:40
A detail of interest, for me, at least:
all Elf to mortal marriages have been female Elf and mortal man.
Lúthien and Beren, Idril and Tuor, Arwen and Aragorn; also in Imrahil's case, the Elven ancestor was a ...-great-grandmother.
Even Elrond and Celebrian kind of fit into the scheme.
Come to think of it, even Eärendil (half-half) and Elwing (Maia great-grandmother).

Any thoughts?
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Ireth_Telrunya
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on: April 26, 2015 03:21
I recall there being one romance between a human woman and an elven man, but it didn't work out. I'll have to look up the names, though.
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Gandolorin
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on: April 26, 2015 03:59
Yes, to be found in HoME volume 10 "Morgoth's Ring", part four "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth". Andreth was "... of the House of Bëor, the sister of Bregor father of Barahir (whose son was Beren One-hand the renowned)."

It kind of brings in the Fall of men in Eden (offstage in HoME), that men were not from the beginning doomed to die but became so after their fall. Andreth thus represents orthodox Christian and Judaic (and Muslim?) belief of death being a punishment for men because of their fall, and contradicts JRRT's own mythology of death being Eru's "gift" to men.

[Edited on 04/26/2015 by Gandolorin]
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Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: May 01, 2015 01:34
That is very interesting, I always wondered if an Elf man ever fell for a human woman. The only male Elf I know of who married out of the species was Elwe/Thingol with Melian. But they were both immortal.

I noticed that trend too, Gandolorin, but let me point out that both Earendil and Elwing were part Elf and part human. I guess they were mortal until they were given the choice. Still, your point is perfectly valid. Although it didn't work out, Finduilas had feelings for Turin, and maybe Nellas did too.

Do you think Caranthir would have fallen in love with Haleth if she had stayed?
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Gandolorin
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on: May 02, 2015 02:19
Elfeawen Lomiondil said:
Do you think Caranthir would have fallen in love with Haleth if she had stayed?

I doubt it. In their first settlement in Thargelion, the Haladin "were ignored by the Noldor of Caranthir." Though they were later rescued by him after being attacked by Orcs, they nevertheless kept moving west, led by Haleth, ultimately ending up in Brethil.
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Elthir
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on: May 04, 2015 10:41
By the way the love was between Andreth and Aegnor.

I know Gandolorin knows that, but if you don't have Morgoth's Ring and you see the name Finrod in the title...

... Finrod has the discussion (in Elvish the athrabeth) with Andreth, but the love is between Andreth and Finrod's brother.
Gandolorin
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on: May 05, 2015 05:50
Elthir said:By the way the love was between Andreth and Aegnor.

I know Gandolorin knows that, but if you don't have Morgoth's Ring and you see the name Finrod in the title...

... Finrod has the discussion (in Elvish the athrabeth) with Andreth, but the love is between Andreth and Finrod's brother.


That's kind of you to assume that I have such encyclopedic knowledge, Elthir, but hopelessly overoptimistic. I just re-read my HoME paperback volume 10 Morgoth's Ring (as I did briefly for my above comment), but this time I single-mindedly read on from page 304 up to page 323 (!) to finally find the comment about Aegnor.

There is something I believe I read somewhere (alert: what I read my be apocryphal!) about a meeting between Albert Einstein and Thomas Alva Edison, most likely in the 1920s. Edison is supposed to have asked Einstein a question which may have been part of the written test that people hoping to join Edison's company (now General Electric, I believe) had to take.

Einstein's dry reply was that he did not encumber his memory with facts that he could look up in a reference book.
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Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: May 08, 2015 04:11
Charming, Gandolorin!
Gandolorin said:
Elfeawen Lomiondil said:
Do you think Caranthir would have fallen in love with Haleth if she had stayed?

I doubt it. In their first settlement in Thargelion, the Haladin "were ignored by the Noldor of Caranthir." Though they were later rescued by him after being attacked by Orcs, they nevertheless kept moving west, led by Haleth, ultimately ending up in Brethil.

That's why I said if she stayed in Caranthir's lands, like he invited her to. It said he "honored" her for her bravery, so I thought . . anyway, pure conjecture!

Is that Aegnor, as in Galadriel's brother?!

Here's another example of Female Elf+Male Human from the Lost Tales. I strongly believe it is no longer canon. In the Tale of Turambar, there is a random guy in Brethil named Tamar. His father was one of the Haladin and his mother was of the Noldoli (Noldor).
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Elthir
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on: May 11, 2015 10:58
Elfeawen Lomiondil said: Is that Aegnor, as in Galadriel's brother?!


Yep. The one with the notable hair too:

"... while his hair was notable: golden like his brothers and sister, but strong and stiff, rising upon his head like flames."

JRRT, 1968 or later, The Shibboleth of Feanor
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