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Figwit
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Post TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 14, 2003 11:11
caps for this sequence are here - take a look to make sure you're discussing the right scenes - and exclude Merry & Pippin, there's a seperate thread for them!

So: do you think that fat cross-eyed Dunlending is PJ or not? How about Freda & Éothain? Any comments on the Rohan country? etcetera etcetera...

And the weekly poll question is: which newly introduced character did you like best judging from this scene alone (!)?
Figwit
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 14, 2003 11:13
Ha! Manly Men! Finally we reach the blessed realm of Rohan. Well... perhaps not blessed as such, but certainly blessed with Éomer son of Éomund and Éowyn, daughter of said Éomund. And Háma – but he's not in this sequence yet.

Some attentive readers might say that I should trash this scene, and they would be right, in a sense: what with me being a bookie and all (some might even call me a purist) and this scene being almost completely made up by the authors. But I must admit that I completely thoroughly love this sequence.

Okay, more methodically:

The three hunters were a bit boring, but then, that's no news. They were pretty boring in the books as well. I'm still not over 'the red sun is rising', but well, what can I say – at least they kept the atmosphere close to Tolkien's work. And the music in this bit was very well done: it was nice to hear the Fellowship theme again.
The only *real* problem I have with this scene is the way Gimli was portrayed. This will prove a topic of much droning in the future, but let me already start out here: Dwarves are not dangerous on short distances, or whatever he makes of it. Dwarves are, on the contrary, known for their stamina: they can march on for days on end without tiring or breaking rhythm. I know, I know, comic relief and all that, but like I said before (and undoubtedly will say again): there is already so little information about the Dwarves in Tolkien's works, that the one representative of this people could be treated with a little more respect. Dwarves aren't just larger Hobbits, nor are they in any way 'amusing': they are a proud people with a rich culture and their own personal traits. I mean, you don't hear Legolas saying: 'Elves are really slow and clumsy' do you?

Then, of course, there's the Saruman sends out the wild men bit. I was mighty pleased to see Sharkey again, and I was glad that PJ and co did include the Dunlendings (and later on the Easterlings and the people of Harad). It would have been easy to leave them out and replace them with Uruks, but he respected Tolkien and I really, really appreciate that. In a movie where everything is turned upside down and turned around, it's great to see this little details, as anchor points for us bookies.
I didn't like Freda and Éothain and Morwen, or whatever their names are. I'm not the kind of person that needs to see whiney little kids to understand what war is about, or feels the least bit sorry for them. And Freda is just plain annoying. But I know that a lot of people found this plot line really moving, so I guess PJ did the right things using up screen time from other parts of the book to add this. *grumbles*

Anyway, on to better things: Edoras. You don't really get a good look at it, but what you *can* see is pretty breathtaking already. And the music! Absolutely stunning. The Rohan-theme is one of my absolute favourites of both scores, without a doubt.
I like how PJ and his designers chose to use the Viking cultures of medieval Scandinavia as inspiration for the culture of the Rohirrim, because I always felt that this people came closest to Tolkien's original sources (read Beowulf, and you'll see what I mean).

Before I answer my own poll question, I'll say a few words about the sequence in general. No, it's nothing like the books. It should bother me, and to a certain degree it does, but then some things are just really worth the irritation.
On the down side of things: Éomer gets banished. Ack ack, triple ack. Not good. And I have a huge problem with the obviousness of both Théoden and Gríma – but then again maybe PJ knew his audience better than I? Also something which annoys me: Théodred. Wasn't he supposed to be in his mid-thirties? (And granted, I find the Dead Théodred Fanciers slightly disturbing.)

Then, onto the characters. My favourite amongst the Rohirrim has always been Éomer – he's very eager, but also very noble. A real man... there should be more like them, and I'm not speaking solely from a feminine point of view . So I was very mad when they sort of dumped him at the beginning of the movie, and only slow a measly glimpse of him at the end. He's a fine character and he deserved a lot better.
But Karl Urban does a fine job at portraying him – the way he attacks Gríma there, that's just what I would have expected from him: too rash, too hot-blooded, and very protective of his sister. I also liked the way he tried to get Théoden to see the truth: with very little patience, and even fewer arguments. He seems really angry at his own inability to change things, very restless.

Restlessness is also what I had expected from Éowyn, and I think in this scene she was close to perfect. She had a certain desperate cool around her: she was truly touched by frost. She also *looked* perfect: not too tall or too strong, but a sort of treacherous frailty. And there was that restless, ever-shifting fear of status quo in her, that fear of standing still, that need to press onward. I know I'm probably phrasing this all wrong, but I always pictured Éowyn to be like a marble statue from afar, but if you look closer you could see something move beneath her skin: restless, I think that word describes it best. {It was only later that she started to disappoint me.}

Then, Gríma... what can I say? I don't like the way they made him look: it was too obvious. PJ has a way of making his villains look extremely obvious, all they need is an extra neon sign on their head saying: Beware: Evil!
But Brad Dourif's performance is spot on – and it only gets better in the following sequences. He's an arrogant weasel, his words sort of flow from his mouth (like poison) and you know very well that he's only in control because he wormed his way up; but he ís in control – that too is very apparent.
In his confrontation with Éomer (when he is pressed between the wall and Éomer's beautiful body... erm, getting a bit carried away) you can also see how vulnerable he really is: physically vulnerable, because you know that if Éomer could get his hands on him he would die a quick yet miserable death. But also mentally: that quick glance at Éowyn does not only reveal his true motives for his betrayal; but it also shows us something else: there is deep longing, loneliness and fear in those eyes. It's amazing how Brad Dourif managed to express so many things which just a glance. Where's that Oscar?

Théoden, ahum. Well, overall I'm not pleased with Théoden. It's not Bernard Hill's fault, he's doing a fine job with the material handed to him. But while the other actors have managed to put some things that were lost in the dialogue back in their performance through body language (Miranda Otto captures the true core of Éowyn, even if her lines have been altered a lot; ditto for Karl Urban and Brad Dourif); Bernard Hill doesn't put back some of the valour of the real King into his performance.
So what we get is this bewitched dusty Moses figure with a cracked skin. Not much to say about that in this sequence, except that in the books Théoden was weakened in spirit, not this physically.
If I hadn't read the books, I think I would've felt very sorry for Teddy (those nails, ack), but now I was just irritated. But thumbs up for the make up department, and for Bernard who had to spend hours in costume to get all that stuff smeared out over his face.

So, I voted Gríma. If I had followed my heart (and my hormones) I would have picked Éomer, but I'm trying to take this as seriously as I possibly can . So it's Gríma, mainly because of Brad Dourif's excellent performance.
Londe
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 14, 2003 12:13
Ah, Edoras and the Rohirrim, my favorite culture finally on the screen.

Edoras
Edoras was breathtakingly beautiful. Peter Jackson and the crew did a wonderful job capturing the culture that I love. The Anglo Saxon/Viking I feel was, as Figwit said, perfect and I think it was what Tolkien had in mind.
The archtecture was wonderful, as well. It was so rich and so simply elegant, it reflected the Rohirrim well.
And the music was the best part!

Eowyn
I was much looking forward to seeing this lady on screen, and she did not disappoint me. True she was different from the books, but Peter Jackson still was able to keep some of the frosty-ness. She seemed trapped by her frailty. Her ongoing mental battle was evident, but not too much so. Her personality was decently well preserved, and Miranda Otto did a great job.

Theoden
Bernard Hill did a wonderful job, and I did like the movie Theoden, strangely. I haven't read the books in almost a year, so the details on the book Theoden are a little hazy. He did not really stick out till the third book then, so I cannot rightly judge Peter Jackson right now.

Grima
As is everyone else in Rohan, Grima was also wonderful. A little to different from the rest of the Rohirrim, but good. Brad Douriff was a extremely convincing Grima, showing well his mental torment, his frailty...truly beautiful job.

Eomer
Ah, my favorite character who is part of my favorite culture. I agree entirely with Figwit. Eomer was true, I think, to Tolkien's Eomer. (but as I said before I haven't read the books for almost a year) His pride was evident, his overprotecting his sister was well represented (not to mention attractive), he was extremely hot-headed (also attractive), manly (I'm with Figwit, All Hail Manly Men!), and loyal to his uncle. Not to mention he has beautiful hair, beautiul eyes, beautiful... (I think it is time to change my avatarr) *cough* Anyway, I voted Eomer, not only for his beautiful self, but I have always liked his fierce pride and his hot-headed nature.

I hope you found my rather confusing (not to mention unproffesional sounding) rant at least a little interesting.
Figwit
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 14, 2003 12:21
I couldn't agree with you more Londe
gaelowyn
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 15, 2003 08:00
in this series of sequences, I thought PJ did a pretty good job capturing the feel of Tolkein too. granted I've read TTT once now. i liked the part with saruman sending out the wildmen, and yes I think PJ was one of them. it was kind of neat to see that not all men were part of the "Good guys". The whole kids on the horse and crying thing wasn't big for me, but it was small and I was able to basically breeze over it.
The shots leading up to Edoras were just breathtaking! The huge mountains in the background were just ....awe inspiring!
Grima was played perfectly...Brad dourif does bad guys pretty well. It's amazing the number of movies he's done...anyways.. I was a bit disappointed in the lack of Eomer in TTT the movie. But i guess his return after being banished is more dramatic at the end, then his going along with the whole group to helms deep as in the book. Karl Urban was fantastic as Eomer. As I read the book, I just couldn't help but develop feelings for him... I mean he's a man's man. He's got honour, valour, strength, looks, loves his family, loves his people... what more could you want?!
Eowyn was portrayed pretty well, Miranda did a great job showing off that "frostiness" that we all read about. I don't know, there was just something about her on the trail to helm's deep that didn't sit 100%. can't put a finger or word to it. I guess PJ wanted to show how Aragorn was the one to "warm her up".
Theoden... ah Theoden. Now, after reading TTT once and ROTK 3 times, it's hard for me to seperate how I feel about theoden NOW, versus first seeing him as we do in this sequence. he is weakend by poisoned words, he is not himself. Overall I thought it was done with great and awesome theatrics, however, he was a bit weaker than I had originally viewed in my mind's eye. But have faith, for Theoden becomes himself and so much more as the story unfolds!!!!!! he is one of my favourites of all time... manly, fatherly, kingly.
Legolas{Greenleaf}
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 15, 2003 12:23
I liked seeing the Three Hunters. One of my favorite parts in the book, and it seemed to keep with the atmosphere that Tolkien portrayed.

Eomer comes in a close second. Loved his interaction with the three hunters.

Peace~

[Edited on 15/9/2003 by Legolas{Greenleaf}]
Goldsand
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 15, 2003 01:43
I voted for Manly Man Eomer :love: .

My favorite part was the dialogue between Eomer and the Three Hunters.

I really liked the whole sequence though, especially Edoras ... the awesome landscape, the architecture. A "non-book" friend of mine, upon seeing the movie, immediately picked up on the similarities to the Viking culture .. kudos to my friend as well as Peter Jackson and the Design team for their excellent work. I agree, the music for this scene is beautiful and quite fitting.

Eowyn, Theoden, and Grima were wonderfully portrayed, and I'd be hard-pressed to find any flaws.

I did enjoy the seeing the Three Hunters again, although I agree with Figwit about the portrayal of Gimli and the Dwarf culture. Also, I always feel sorry for John Rhys-Davis during this scene, having to run up the hill with that very heavy costume. From what I remember on the Making of TT documentary on the DVD - he (John) really is tired and out of breath in this scene ... poor guy.
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 15, 2003 02:08
I love Eomer and Eowyn. They are two of my favourite characters in the book, and they get some of the best book-to-film character translations. Karl Urban really captured Eomer's attitude, in dealing with both his uncle and Grima. And then Miranda Otto simply is Eowyn. There is nobody else I could have pictured for that role. She does such a beautiful job in this role and went way beyond anything I could have ever even hoped. The Rohan culture in general is one of my favourite anyway... The sets, the costumes, and of course the amazing score. Those first wide shots of it are just breathtaking.
~wild_shieldmaiden~
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 15, 2003 04:26
I'm sorry, Figwit, but I couldn't disagree with you more strongly than with your view of Freda, Eothain, and Morwen.
That scene was critical becouse it shows the horror of war, and the effects it has on the everyday family. Freda is very young, and she is, of course, (as anyone would be) horrified at leaving her mother behind. Try placing yourself in her place. You are young and used to your parents there to protect and care for you. Suddenly, your mother is telling you to go, leave her to the mercy of these wild men, and you are seeing houses being burned, people being slaughered, and those who you are used to being in control of everything are screaming and running and being killed. How would you feel?

Morwen is showing what a true loving mother should be, sacrificing herself for her childeren, and I think she is a wonderful role-model.
Figwit
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 16, 2003 02:00
I'm sorry, Figwit, but I couldn't disagree with you more strongly than with your view of Freda, Eothain, and Morwen.


I can see your point, ~wild_shieldmaiden~, and that's exactly why PJ included it... however, it simply doesn't work for me. I'm always suspicious when little crying or frightened children jump up out of the blue. Like I said, I'm not a mothery person, my first instinct is to shout: well, kill 'em!

What *did* work for me, however, was when later in the movie you saw all those kids with too large helmets on their heads.

What bothered me most about Freda and her family is that in the end, they're reunited. Call me cruel, but that's just... If you want to show the horror of war, then show the horror and not just some sappy story with a good ending.

I suppose I'm not making myself more popular with you now but all this to say that I *do* understand the why of it all, but I don't like it... the least bit.
Este
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 16, 2003 05:41
What a tough decision,all the parts were so wonderful...Maybe the Freda/Eothain/Morwen part-I`m just that type of person,I always have to feel sorry for helpless little children:cry:...But Grima was also excellent,I agree with everything said about his glance at Eowyn,Brad`s acting was just spot on,his character just has the depth I never realised it had while reading the books...Eomer was so cool,honest,totally protective about his sister-I need a brother like that!The only thing I didn`t like was Gimli`s comic relief,which totally ruined everything I though about dwarves reading ˝The Hobbit˝,when I thought of them as proud...Apart from that,the Three Hunter`s weren`t bad either,so this sequence definately counts as one of my favourites...
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 16, 2003 12:40
Ahhh...Rohan, where men are men and the women are frosty!!!! but to my comments first....

The three hunters both in the book and the movie I thought it was too long but at least we do get to see more of the wonderful NZ country. The portrayal of Gimli ( like the 1st movie) annoyed me no end! I agree w/ Figwit, the Dwarves are a noble culture and treated as 2nd citizens.
the Dwarves are master craftsmen in stone, steel and jewels, builders of great halls under the mountains and are treated with very little dignity by PJ.

Rohan As far as I was concerned PJ could have tanked a ton of stuff (to be discussed, i'm sure ) in favor of staying longer in Rohan. I voted for Grima. He did more with a look...the scene between him and Eowyn was stunning. You could see the naked longing on his face and her paralyzing confusion in return. When she stormed from her cousin's room outside, ever fiber in her body was screaming for release from what she saw as a desperate, lonely life. The confrontation between Grima and Eomer was umm, well just let me say umm, Eomer could ride to my rescue any dang day of the week! 'nuf said. Theoden, was a bit over the top, the only thing PJ missed was to have him drooling.....ugh
Figwit
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 16, 2003 09:36

the Dwarves are master craftsmen in stone, steel and jewels, builders of great halls under the mountains and are treated with very little dignity by PJ.


exactly
Nimloth
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 17, 2003 08:56
Regarding Eowyn: I think you characterised her - or rather, Miranda Otto's portrayal of her - spot on, Figwit. I really enjoyed her performance at Edoras. I've always liked her very much in the books, and she comes across just like I had imagined her. I'm curious to hear why you don't like her so much anymore later on (again, I agree, but I think that's more a script / directing thing).

While I'm at it - I have a question which hopefully will fit in this thread: In the scene in the Golden Hall where Eothain and Freda are given some food, Eowyn gets up and makes a little speech about "they had no warning" etc. She mentions a "Rick Cottontree", if I'm not mistaken. Who he?
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 17, 2003 10:57
Eowyn gets up and makes a little speech about "they had no warning" etc. She mentions a "Rick Cottontree", if I'm not mistaken. Who he?


Are you joking, Nimloth, because I can't tell? So, forgive me if you were just kidding around.

Eowyn says that the wild men are burning as they go:
"rick, cot, and tree"


A rick is a stack of something like hay

A cot is a small shelter, kind of like a shortened form of cottage

A tree is, of course, a tree

Forgive me if I misunderstood your post, but maybe there are others out there who did not understand what Eowyn was talking about.
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 18, 2003 01:36
hmmm..i haven't really got my thoughts in order at the moment..but let's have a go anyway ..

THREE HUNTERS
I love them. That says enough - some people find them boring, but I could have an entire movie of those three, although, on second thoughts, there should definately be some M&P in there! I love the landscape too; beautiful and the way I envisaged Rohan for sure.

FREDA & EOTHAIN
Hmm..This seems to be a topic for a lot of debate, but I felt that it was a worthy inclusion in the story, because after all, it is referencing an event from the book (the burning of the Westfold) and also showing the reality of the horror of war. Although not particularly favourite scenes of mine, I don't mind them.

EDORAS
woaaaaaaaaaah...Is there anyone who wouldn't want to be standing up outside the Golden Hall looking at that scenery? I think not! One of the most beautiful sets for sure. Loved, as many people have mentioned, the sort of scandinavian influence on the architecture - worked a treat .

THEODEN
I think the change to an "exorcism" had to be made for the sake of a general moviegoing audience. Of course we who've read the books would understand that Theoden was mentally weakened by Grima's whisperings, but with general moviegoers, they need to see to understand. So PJ changed it so that a general audience could understand what was going on - people would probably not have understood what was going on if the scene had been translated directly from book to film. I reckon it works, so I don't mind it too much.

GRIMA
Regarding what Figwit said about Grima being too obviously evil, I agree - but I think that this might have been for a similar reason as the Theoden change: so that it is easier for a general audience to understand. With so much happening in TTT, if the audience can easily tell who is evil and who isn't, then they can focus on what is happening, instead of getting bogged down in character confusion. Otherwise, I thought Brad Dourif was awesome, perfect, fantastic...all good things!

EOWYN
Perfect casting I have to say - she just suits Eowyn so well. The frosty glances, the scene with her and Grima, and the scene with her sword - all brilliant. She has great presence, and I think it will be nice seeing a bit more of her in the EE and/or ROTK. Her costumes were spot on as well!

EOMER
Aaaah...One of my favourite characters, and though his screentime in TTT was minimal, well he made that time his own didn't he! Karl Urban was perfect; proud, strong, hot-headed, and there can only be more coming! I think that his banishment served a couple of purposes:
1) make Grima more evil
2) make the situation more desperate for Rohan, in particular for Eowyn
3) save introducing Erkenbrand and the complications that would bring.
So I guess it was the right decision, even if it meant less of Eomer ..

overall, I like these scenes. I voted for Eomer, because, well perhaps I'm bias, but I thought Karl Urban just did a top job introducing his character, and really shaped him for what his character will go through in ROTK ...Hope this post made a bit of sense ...
Nimloth
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 19, 2003 02:27
Lol Nienna - thank you very much for enlightening me! I feel rather stupid now :blush: . But I really did think this was a name - and it made no sense whatsoever to me...
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 19, 2003 10:34
I chose Éomer because not only his own character is introduced well, but also the character of his people. He represents all that is best in the Rohirrim (and I am not an Éomer groupie). In that one, brief scene, the best qualities of his people are clearly shown and also their main fault, reckless haste, which could be called fearlessness and claimed as another virtue. Éowyn is good, Gríma is good, but my vote has to go to the man who carries the Rohirrim on his shoulders. This is the scene where I almost begin to fancy him!

Neneithel
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 19, 2003 10:43
Lol Nienna - thank you very much for enlightening me! I feel rather stupid now . But I really did think this was a name - and it made no sense whatsoever to me...


Oh thank goodness, you were not joking. I sat there for a long time wondering whether I should answer or not... I'm glad I could be of help. I'm sure if you were confused, that there were others who were equally as confused...they just didn't want to ask
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 21, 2003 03:46
Oh my, i see i'm not up there!

Anyway, my favorite bit in this bit would be me and Freda/Burning of the Westfold and Saruman's whole talk thing which was quite good. Saruman just seems so evil, like before he was just mean evil, now he's like evil evil if you get my meaning. Also, despite some people might not like it, Eothain and Freda where a good addition to the film as it gives the village's being raided a character. So they're not just random villages, their real villages inhabbited by real people and it shows the horrors of war. Like the Harrowing of the North in 1085 i think, probably earlier. Edoras was good aswell, i liked the whole Rohirrim look from the architexture to the armour (especially the helms).
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: October 05, 2003 03:10

Grima. Grima, Grima, Grima. Was easily the best actor in TTT. Everything, from the way he looked to how he spoke was perfect. I was worried that PJ would merely produce a snivelling crawling wreck, but Brad Dourif makes him cold and cruel and calculating: easy to believe he could manipulate peole and worm his way into favour. One of his best scenes was where he was cornered by Eomer and when he looks
over to Eowyn. The desperation and longing are clear in his eyes and expression. It also showed his physical weakness against Eomer's in contrast with his sly mind.

The scene clearly showed the rashness and heated personality of Eomer and his protective instincts towards his sister. Karl clearly made the most of his few scenes.

Miranda also was very good. This particular scene shows her coldness and frosty side, while in the later scene between her and Grima it shows how trapped she is feeling. Miranda put these across very well.

Edoras was simply stunning. There was not one thing bad about this set. Everything was how it should be: the Golden Hall of Meduseld, the flags stirring in the breeze...beautiful.
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: April 16, 2004 08:31
Like I said, I'm not a mothery person, my first instinct is to shout: well, kill 'em!

Well, Figwit - kill 'em? - normally I would say that about liittle kids in the movies but I think the kids were used well and sparingly in these movies. And I think Freda did very well - very natural - though I wish she hadn't whined at Edoras "Where's Mamma?"
Lady~Eowyn
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Post RE: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: April 16, 2004 12:47
Well I liked the music alot in this scene, especially the Three hunters song, which never made the soundtracks. I prefer the three hunters scene over Edoras.
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Post Re: TTT Sequence by sequence #3: The Three Hunters / Saruman / Edoras
on: September 20, 2012 10:45
loved watching the three hunters the most
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