woodelf71
Council Member   Registered: 12/25/2003 Status: Offline
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 posted on 1/19/2004 at 06:51 AM |
| I have looked in the encyclopedia for this, but I can not find it. What is the Flame of Anor, that Gandalf wielded to fight the Balrog? If the information is there, I am not looking in the right place. Help. ____________________
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atalante_star
Scholar of Imladris and Theodens Lady  Registered: 5/16/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/19/2004 at 07:12 AM |
This is a bit of an odd thing .... the Flame of Anor isn't mentioned anywhere else in the books (I don't think).
Anor is the Sun, and so the 'flame of Anor' would literally be the light of the Sun. It could also refer to Laurelin of the golden flowers, and the fruit from which the sun was made.
It would seem, therefore, that Gandalf is talking about his power - either that of a Maiar, that of an Istari.
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 Elegaer looked up at Thuringwethil, her face a grimace of pain. "We shall meet again, Thuringwethil ... in that you are right. And when we do, you will die," she said icily, a last show of defiance and pride before clutching her stomach and screaming out in pain as Thuringwethil vanished.
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woodelf71
Council Member Registered: 12/25/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/19/2004 at 08:51 AM |
I looked under Istari, but couldn't find anything about it there. Maybe there will be something on it under Maiar, when it is finished. Thanks.
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Nienna-of-the-Valar
Loremaster of the Edain  Registered: 4/7/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/19/2004 at 10:43 AM |
The Flame of Anor is really never explained so it is up for interpretation, which is why we don't have anything about it in the Encyclopedia or the Middle-earth section...yet 
Another interpretation is that Gandalf may have been speaking about Narya, the Ring of Fire. He may have been saying that he is the wielder of Narya. This is the interpretation that I choose to believe though any of Atalante's could also be correct
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atalante_star
Scholar of Imladris and Theodens Lady Registered: 5/16/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/19/2004 at 11:12 AM |
quote:
Another interpretation is that Gandalf may have been speaking about Narya, the Ring of Fire. He may have been saying that he is the wielder of Narya. This is the interpretation that I choose to believe though any of Atalante's could also be correct.
oooh! I hadn't thought of that  but I don't believe that Gandalf would choose to reveal that he wore Narya if he had other balrog-dispersing methods at his disposal
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Elegaer looked up at Thuringwethil, her face a grimace of pain. "We shall meet again, Thuringwethil ... in that you are right. And when we do, you will die," she said icily, a last show of defiance and pride before clutching her stomach and screaming out in pain as Thuringwethil vanished.
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AtanvarneRivendell
Council Member  Registered: 1/6/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/19/2004 at 01:40 PM |
I believe Gandalf thought the encounter with the Balrog of Morgoth would be sort of an ultimate test for him, one that he could fail. I expect he would weild every bit of power available to him. I will have to ask my husband. We had this discussion and he said the Flame of Arnor could have referred to either the power he weilds through his staff (the little glowing crystal?) or that his "gift" was as a weilder of fire - the ring, Narya. Saruman's gift was that of speech or the power of persuasion through words. Radagast, the brown (another wizard, see FoTR) had the gift of communication with animals. I choose to believe that Gandalf's gift as weilder of fire was enhanced by the ring Cirdan gave him (Narya) and that the Flame of Arnor had something to do with his overall abilities and past expressions of his powers.
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Atanvarne of Rivendell
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Tel_Quessir
Council Member  Registered: 1/15/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/20/2004 at 05:51 AM |
based on what the flame of anor does in the two towers game, i would say it has something to do with bringing Gandalf back to life after his encounter with the Balrog. for in the game, it increases the chance that you revive when you die. however, this is likely to be an expanded PJ LotR item, not an original Tolkien thing.
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Namárië
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IsildursHeir
Council Member  Registered: 12/17/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/22/2004 at 04:46 AM |
I think the Flame of Anor has something to do with the Secret Fire. The Secret Fire, I am told, is said to be the Holy Spirit, the power of the creation of Illuvatar. Gandalf probably served this power. Hope this helps...
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Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hilděnyar tenn'Ambar-metta
Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.
Elessar Telcontar (TA 2931 - FO 120)
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Nienna-of-the-Valar
Loremaster of the Edain Registered: 4/7/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/22/2004 at 08:59 AM |
When Gandalf says (and this is not a direct quote since someone is reading my FotR) 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor', the Secret Fire part probably has something to do with the Flame Imperishable that Eru used to create the world, but the Flame of Anor is an obscure reference that could mean any number of things as we have said in the previous posts  .
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woodelf71
Council Member Registered: 12/25/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/22/2004 at 10:13 AM |
Thanks for all your help, everyone. After much searching on the subject, I found something. I don't know who's right, but I like to think that he is referring to the Flame Imperishable. I found a definition of it in the Encyclopedia of Arda.
"Flame Imperishable seems to represent that aspect of Iluvatar through which he was able to grant free will and true life to the beings he created."
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atalante_star
Scholar of Imladris and Theodens Lady Registered: 5/16/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/22/2004 at 02:17 PM |
I think we may be getting caught up in small niggles about things that we don't fully understand.
Two things are mentioned by Gandalf - that he wields the Flame of Anor and he is a servant of the Secret Fire. Everyone here seems to agree that Secret Fire is associated with the Flame Imperishable, the life that Ilúvatar gave to his children, the spark of life in all, and presumably the source of the Ainur's powers.
And on to the Flame of Anor. Is this the Flame Imperishable as well? Or a reference to Narya? And does it matter?
How does Narya "work"? Could it be assumed that it "uses" the power that Ilúvatar gave to the world? So then what would be the difference between the power of Ilúvatar as the Flame Imperishable, and Narya focussing what could well be the same power......???
[Edited on 23/1/2004 by atalante_star]
[Edited on 9/11/2004 by atalante_star]
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Elegaer looked up at Thuringwethil, her face a grimace of pain. "We shall meet again, Thuringwethil ... in that you are right. And when we do, you will die," she said icily, a last show of defiance and pride before clutching her stomach and screaming out in pain as Thuringwethil vanished.
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woodelf71
Council Member Registered: 12/25/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/23/2004 at 12:29 AM |
Ok, I haven't read all the books. Learning the meaning of the word "Flame Imperishable" is something new to me.
I don't know how "Nenya" comes into all this anyway. So, I'm shutting up now. LOL! Just teasing. (I know it was just a type-o.)
[Edited on 1/23/2004 by woodelf71]
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AtanvarneRivendell
Council Member Registered: 1/6/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/23/2004 at 05:55 PM |
Cruising another website tookburrough.com I think, I found this tidbit regarding Gandalf, Cirdan and the Ring, Narya:
The Poster cited "The Tale of Years, Appendix B p.36."
Narya was entrusted to Gil-galad who gave it to Cirdan, Lord of the Gray Havens....
When Gandalf arrived in the Gray havens around the year 1000 of the Third Age, Cirdan perceived that he was the wisest of the Wizards and had the greatest spirit. He gave Narya to Gandalf saying
"Take this ring, Master, for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hears in a world that grows chill."
Gandalf bore Narya in secret, but Saruman became aware of Cirdan's gift and grew resentful. Gandalf's spirit was enhanced by the ring and he countered Sauron's destructive fire with a kindling of hope.
Entymology is cited as: Narya from Quenya word nar meaning "flame, fire".
So servant of the secret fire and weilder of the flame could refer both to the fire of creation and maybe the ring since he bore it in secret.
just another thought on this thread. Anyone know anything about a place or person called Anor?
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Atanvarne of Rivendell
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Morwinyoniel
Gallery Admin & Realm Head of Estë   Registered: 10/29/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 1/25/2004 at 01:54 PM |
quote:
just another thought on this thread. Anyone know anything about a place or person called Anor?
See the second post in this thread, by atalante_star.
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  It is the journey that matters, the distant wanderer.
Call of the wild. In me forever and ever and ever forever.
- Nightwish: Wanderlust
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Oitur
Council Member  Registered: 2/9/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 4/11/2004 at 02:24 AM |
quote:
When Gandalf met the Balrog on the Bridge of Khazad-dűm, he spoke of himself as a servant of the Secret Fire. It has been conjectured that these words referred to his fire-ring Narya, but it seems unlikely that he would reveal this to a bitter enemy. More plausibly, Gandalf's words identify him as a servant of the power of Ilúvatar.
Source: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda
I personally think that explains it rather well!
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"The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing."
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atalante_star
Scholar of Imladris and Theodens Lady Registered: 5/16/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 4/11/2004 at 09:14 AM |
Um ... well ... it explains what EoA think .... but you'll find that's just one explanation. EoA tend to take a viewpoint and stand by it, and not talk about the alternate viewpoints.
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Elegaer looked up at Thuringwethil, her face a grimace of pain. "We shall meet again, Thuringwethil ... in that you are right. And when we do, you will die," she said icily, a last show of defiance and pride before clutching her stomach and screaming out in pain as Thuringwethil vanished.
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Oitur
Council Member Registered: 2/9/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 4/11/2004 at 05:09 PM |
Granted, there are more than 'viewpoint' to every discussion, but i think the above quote explains gandalf's "flame of anor" thing rather well....
I think its a referrence to him being a servent or follower (for lack of a better word) of the "flame imperishable"
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"The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing."
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WrathOfSauron
Council Member  Registered: 4/11/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 4/11/2004 at 10:06 PM |
I agree with Oitur. I have looked into Gandalf's statement that he is a servant of the "Secret Fire". I think this Secret Fire could be the The Flame Imperishable, meaning he is a servant of Iluvatar. I have yet to figure out what The Flame Imperishable actually is, although I know it is related to Iluvatar. Anyone wanna fill me in on what it is?
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"Many are the strange chances of the world," said Mithrandir, "and help oft shall come from the hands of the weak when the Wise falter."
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atalante_star
Scholar of Imladris and Theodens Lady Registered: 5/16/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 4/11/2004 at 10:20 PM |
quote:
Granted, there are more than 'viewpoint' to every discussion, but i think the above quote explains gandalf's "flame of anor" thing rather well....
I think EoA explains the Secret Fire bit well (i.e. the Flame Imperishable). But I'm not at all sure that the Flame of Anor is the same thing.
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Elegaer looked up at Thuringwethil, her face a grimace of pain. "We shall meet again, Thuringwethil ... in that you are right. And when we do, you will die," she said icily, a last show of defiance and pride before clutching her stomach and screaming out in pain as Thuringwethil vanished.
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Nienna-of-the-Valar
Loremaster of the Edain Registered: 4/7/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 4/12/2004 at 12:08 AM |
Yes, I agree with Atalante, whomever wrote that entry over at EoA has explained what they think only about the "servant of the secret fire" part, not the "wielder of the flame of Anor" part, which is what this thread is supposed to be discussing 
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Oitur
Council Member Registered: 2/9/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 4/12/2004 at 04:00 AM |
i was just using it as an example 
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"The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing."
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