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Figwit
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Post 4.V. Window On the West
on: April 12, 2004 09:53
Right, a couple of questions to get you lot started (and I'll add some more during the week - when I finish this chapter ):

- Faramir was already introduced to us in the previous chapter, but we only really get to meet him now. What's he like?

- There's a lot of talk about Boromir in this chapter as well: how does Faramir portray him? How do the brothers resemble eachother? Why do you think Tolkien did this?

- We get the importance of 'lore' and knowledge again here: in which form?

- Why does Frodo want to get rid of Gollum?

- Henneth Annûn: depiction and symbolism?

- A lot is said about Gondor and the (political) history of Men. What effect does this have?

- Faramir's temptation: was he tempted or not?


PbHf's quote's about Sam's reaction to Faramir.

[Edited on 20/4/2004 by Figwit]

[Edited on 26/4/2004 by Figwit]

[Edited on 15/5/2004 by Figwit]
legolasfan27
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Post RE: 4.V. Window On the West
on: April 14, 2004 08:28
Ahhh Faramir :drool: - First thing I liked about him from his conversations with Frodo in this chapter are his manners...a very well-mannered gentleman is this warrior Captain. He senses that Frodo is skirting some issues, he wants to know if Frodo had any part in Boromir's suspected demise, but he asks around the issues instead of making accusations, in an effort to make a "hard judgement" as he puts it. He also seems confident of himself and his Rangers...they are in Ithilien in the Enemy's territory, they've just ambushed Easterlings, but here he sits, content to question this Halfling on what is more a personal matter...

Faramir portrays his brother as a warrior who loved war for its sake and the glory that came with victory...it also seems that even as a young man Boromir wasn't content to accept that some day a King might claim the throne of Gondor...he evidently felt it was past time that the Stewards claimed the throne...but Faramir doesn't fault him for thinking that way. It is obvious he loved his brother and looked up to him, but didn't emulate him because they are simply different in personality. I rather like Faramir because he loved books (my kind of guy!) and learning and wisdom. He's more the warrior-poet kind, if you see what I mean, instead of the vanquish-first-ask-questions-later way Boromir is portrayed (and if I'm wrong about Boromir, it's because all I know of him is from TTT and the movies, Ihaven't read FOTR yet )
Lannorui
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Post RE: 4.V. Window On the West
on: April 18, 2004 08:09
Comparing Faramir and Boromir is like comparing peas and carrots. Quite different in a lot of ways, yet similar in others.

Faramir and Boromir are similar in that they both are great men of battling prowess. They both want the "glory" of Gondor restored and are willing to give their lives for that acheivement. They both are respected greatly for their leadership (even though their leadership is quite different).

The major difference is that Faramir is a "thinker". He thinks out his movements and little is done by him without first thinking of what the consequences will be whether it be good or ill. Faramir knows that Frodo knows more than what he is telling at the begining of the chapter and though he could use strength to find this information out he does not. He can "sense" that there is more to be known, but that maybe the knowing is not for him. Faramir would rather use words instead of strength. I feel this is definitely the reason that he speaks to Frodo quietly on the road. Faramir is kind, gentle, and soft spoken. When he at last does find out the reason for Frodo's journey with Boromir included (thanks to Sam's little blunder) he had the chance then to take what he would like, but he is also a man of honor and he did make a vow that he would not touch it even if it were on the road to Gondor.

Boromir on the other hand was an "action" person with little thought on how his actions would affect the final outcome. He wanted Gondor restored and to him the only way to do this was to have "Isldurs Bane". He was certain his strength could control the ring, but in the end he learned that even in strong men there is weakness and that weakness was his downfall. Yet in the end he did what was needed to be done and saw how the ring must be destroyed and saved his honor.

The respect and love that Faramir has for Boromir is very evident even though he can see his brothers weaknesses and I find this very admirable. Unconditional love is hard to find. He looks up to his brother and learning that Boromir fell weak to the power of the ring must have been a hard thing to hear. To know a man of honor and bravery, would try by strength to take what was not his to take after making a vow of protection.

I was surprised to see that Frodo, despite Boromirs treachery, was upset by Boromirs death. I wonder though was it the death of Boromir that causes the sorrow, or because now there is a good chance that his kin are also dead and he has no way of knowing the truth of the matter? I think perhaps it is a little of both. Frodo knows that it was the evil of the ring that drove Boromir to his madness, and so is saddened by the lose of such a brave man. Now though he must contend with the possibility that he will never see his kin again and that brings him even greater sorrow.

Well, I am finished for now. I really enjoyed reading the book again and joining others with a passion for the book in a discussion. I wish I had found this site long ago and joined in from the begining, but that is alright. I look forward to any comments on my comments.

Navaer -- Lann :heart:
Trignifty
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Post RE: 4.V. Window On the West
on: April 18, 2004 03:36
I agree heavily with what Lannorui has said here (sidenote: waves hi to Figgy). A cliche way of describing the brothers is simply: Faramir is the brains, Boromir is the brawn. This isn't to say that Boromir is stupid or that Faramir is incapable of holding his own in battle.

Faramir appreciates the "aesthetics" of life, beauty, knowledge, etc. He is the Moulin Rouge of our little expedition. He is prepared to fight for his country: he, like Boromir, is truly a Son of Gondor and will protect his land 'till death if it need go that far. However he does not do it needlessly. He can, if psychological criticism is applied to him, represent a different part of the human psyche than Boromir does. He is the methodical side in all of us, that would prefer to examine all angles and check and recheck decisions before any decisive action is taken. Given this behavioral pattern, he is extremely fairminded. He knows his limitations and acts accordingly. At one point (I believe it's in this chapter, I'm not entirely certain...) Faramir says "I would not take this thing, even if it lay by the highway." That says, to me, a lot about his character. He, being methodical uses a simple formula: Isildur's Bane + Fellowship + Quest + Boromir = Dead Brother. Of course, that's a crude interpretation of a possible thought process.

I think Faramir's main deterrent from weilding the Ring of Power is that he knows he must not. He makes a conscious choice that though he may desire power (being human, this is always a possibility) but he has the will to follow through to the conclusions: Should he take the Ring, Gondor will fall as an evil object shall achieve evil ends, if Gondor falls, death and destruction will conquer everyone. Whether he be brave enough to say no or too scared to say yes, I don't know.

Boromir, on the other hand, is the Black Hawk Down of our expedition (odd that I used two Ewan McGregor films...). Specifically, he's Hoot Gibson-like, in essence. He does what he does because he has to. He feels an obligation to his homeland, for the men next to him. There's not necessarily a right or wrong for Boromir. There's 'do what you have to do to make sure the men at home are safe.' But, as Lannorui said, he does learn that for as strong as he is, he has weakness and it is his downfall.

I think Tolkien wanted to insure that readers didn't walk away thinking Boromir was a bad guy, honestly. There are so many levels and sublevels to man in Tolkien's novel that to try to pidgeon-hole any man (including Grima, but that's a whole other issue...) as evil is simply bad judgement.


I was surprised to see that Frodo, despite Boromirs treachery, was upset by Boromirs death. I wonder though was it the death of Boromir that causes the sorrow, or because now there is a good chance that his kin are also dead and he has no way of knowing the truth of the matter? I think perhaps it is a little of both. Frodo knows that it was the evil of the ring that drove Boromir to his madness, and so is saddened by the lose of such a brave man. Now though he must contend with the possibility that he will never see his kin again and that brings him even greater sorrow.


The kin angle wasn't something I've thought heavily on before, actually. I think it's an incredibly valid theory. I think the majority of Frodo's sorrow comes from the fact that Boromir is dead. He has spent time with the man, he has been through dangers with him. He witnessed Boromir's corruption and must realize that Boromir's death coupled with his witness of the falling of Gandalf are the signs of the storm. It's a sobering experience for him, I would imagine. Frodo has to contend with the fact that his actions don't just affect the Shire, or Sam, Merry, Pippin or any other Hobbit. An entire world will fall if he does not succeed. I can see how the deaths of not one, but two of his fellows can shake him into seeing that there are enormous odds stacked against him...after all...If a wizard and the best warrior of Gondor cannot make it...what chance does a poor Hobbit have?
Lannorui
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Post RE: 4.V. Window On the West
on: April 19, 2004 08:54
Hmm, interesting thoughts on Frodos sorrow Trignifty. That is definitely a different way of looking at it. He did get to know Boromir over the journey and I think that in truth when Faramir asks if he was friend to Boromir that Frodo is very truthful because he has spent that time with him, even though he fell to the evil of the ring in the end. You are right though, he does not just see this as a "I have lost two friends to this ring" type of thing, he can see the larger picture and what will affect all if he fails. Of course he also saw what would happen if he fail in Galadriels mirror, but that was only a small taste of what would happen. He is now finding this is affecting him in a more personal way I believe.

Nice to read with you.
Lann
Figwit
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Post RE: 4.V. Window On the West
on: May 14, 2004 11:30
Well, first of all, I love Boromir. So this is a very very coloured reading .

Faramir was already introduced to us in the previous chapter, but we only really get to meet him now. What's he like?


Unlikeable . I really can't grasp him like I can with most other characters, he sort of escapes me. I used to think of him as some 'lost scholar', someone who'd prefer to study and lock himself away in a library of some sort but was forced to go outdoors and fight.
But on the other hand, those 'outdoors' seem to be his domain as well, he seems very comfortable there.

There's a lot of talk about Boromir in this chapter as well: how does Faramir portray him? How do the brothers resemble eachother?


I'm going to reply to some previous posts here. First of all: go Trig! Very nice comparison you came up with there, and in general I agree with the think-act distinction.

However, '[Faramir] knows his limitations and acts accordingly' - that's also what Boromir does, but in another way. Boromir's main focus lies outside himself, and what he sees is that his shortcomings (his own mortality, really, the fact that he's a finite being) will cause his own ultimate goal (to protect his city against Sauron, maybe even defeat the dark lord) to never be reached.
And to compensate for his limitations, he thinks the Ring might be of help.

For me, the main difference lies not in thinking vs. acting but in their stance.
Boromir is a very proud man, bordering on arrogance at times, and he's pretty self-conscious about that; while Faramir doesn't seem to have any sort of pride.
Personally I feel that while Boromir entered Lórien, conquering his fears at that moment, Faramir would have been more reluctant to enter. So maybe there's some secret pride at work there, something of the academic who is pleased with himself for knowing, and for knowing what others do not know.
Another example of this is when Faramir talks about Boromir wanting to be King (when he was a kid, very important nuance to me) and not accepting Aragorn's claim: but he did, and we know from the Fellowship's journey that Boromir often had very different ideas than Aragorn (think about Caradhras, Lórien, the Gap of Rohan...) but he always swallows his pride. That's a very explicit exceptance of Aragorn's leadership, and an implicit vow of fealty.
Faramir assumes that when they would have returned to Minas Tirith, there would have been rivalry bout I doubt that. Boromir had already stepped aside for 'his king', imho. It show (to me) that Faramir knows less or understands less than he'd like to pretend.

There's not necessarily right or wrong for Boromir
~ Trignifty


Boromir is more flexible in what he considers to be right or wrong than Faramir, and in this he leans closely to feminine ethics or ethics of care, which are less about abstract moral rules or ideals and more about real situations with all their nuances.
So maybe Faramir appears to be more morally just, but I could write a whole essay on why he might not be. (But I'll spare you from that.)

Why do you think Tolkien did this?


I think Tolkien wanted to insure that readers didn't walk away thinking Boromir was a bad guy, honestly.
~ Trignifty


But he did! In one of his letters, he compares Boromir to Saruman and calls him a traitor. I don't think Tolkien knew completely what a complex character he'd created in Boromir, and I've always felt that Faramir's talking about Boromir doesn't aid his character one bit: he comes across as proud, bloodthirsty, out for glory 'but I love him all the same'.

Faramir's love for his brother seems very double to me: it's a sort of arrogant love, like he knows Boromir wasn't as good as he was, but he still loves him. It's the love of any brother for a sibling who strayed from the straight and narrow: they're still your kin, and you still love them. That's the impression I get: like Tolkien wrote all this to show what a kind person Faramir was, that he could see through Boromir's bad characteristics and still love him for them.


We get the importance of 'lore' and knowledge again here: in which form?


In the portrayal of Faramir, it clearly comes across that this is a character Tolkien really loves and values; and it's a scolar. Need I say more?

Faramir's temptation: was he tempted or not?


I don't think Faramir was tempted at any point. He was, at most, tempted to allow himself to be tempted. By comparison, Boromir had been exposed to the Ring for months. It's a bit like radiation, seeping in, a slow poison. Faramir shields himself from it by never wanting to see the thing, because he knows that to see it would make it real, would make it something he could long for - like Boromir did.


Finally, I'd like to say something about Frodo's sorrow (very interesting topic). I like boh your ideas.
Personally I always felt that Frodo might find it difficult in hindsight to interpret Boromir's pre-Amon Hen behaviour, and that's why he hesitates to call him a friend. Not because he was wrong, but because he's probably wondering if not everything Boromir ever said or done was aimed at getting the Ring (which I'm certain is not the case).
Lieutenant_Gothmog
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Post RE: 4.V. Window On the West
on: January 10, 2007 06:15
I think that he wasn't sure Boromir still regarded him as a friend. He still thought he was alive.
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