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Figwit
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Post 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: June 07, 2004 09:36
1. What is the overall mood of this chapter? How does Tolkien create it?

2. The meeting with the Dúnedain: did you like it and why (not)? What do you make of Halbarad, what kind of character is he? What is the significance of Arwen's banner and her words? Why did Elrohir and Elladan come with the Dúnedain?

3. In the previous chapter we saw Pippin without Merry, now we see the opposite. What do you think of Merry in this chapter? What is the difference with Pippin? How is his relationship with Théoden?

4. PbHf's Quote of the Week deals with the character of Éowyn. All discussion of her character goes there. Some points of interest for thís thread: what is her relationship to Aragorn, what does he think of her, what is the meaning of the cup she offers him?

5. The Paths of the Dead: what do you think they symbolize? Do they have a counterpart elsewhere in the book (for example the Barrow-downs, Moria or Shelob's Lair)?

6. Aragorn goes through some major trials in this chapter. How has his character developed so far? How does Tolkien show he deems himself ready?

[Edited on 4/8/2004 by Figwit]
narithil
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Post RE: 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: June 08, 2004 07:07
5. The Paths of the Dead: what do you think they symbolize? Do they have a counterpart elsewhere in the book (for example the Barrow-downs, Moria or Shelob's Lair)?

The Paths of the Dead symbolize a journey (metaphoracally) through a dark or difficult time to then achieve a greater strength. This is one of the most frightening places (in my opinion) in LOTR. Anyone who goes through the paths will die according to legend, which seems to be a powerful factor. Aragorn, however, knows that his road lies through that pass. This had even been predicter by Malbeth the Seer. So to go against it would be to deny his destiny. Then when he passes through, he comes out with the strength of an army that can't die. It is esentially a trial of his faith in himself as the next king of Gondor.

The Barrow-downs, Moria, and Shelob's Lair are all similar to this to an extent. In each, at least one member of the Fellowship fears that he has lost his friend(s). Though no one is "lost" in the Paths of the Dead, those who travel it know that they may die. In the Barrow-downs, (correct me if I'm wrong- you'd think I'd remember these things after the 4th time) Frodo sees his friends who all look death-like, but he calls for Tom Bombadil just as he sees a weight and all of them are saved. Though they did not necessarily come out stronger, they were more prepared for the perils of the journey ahead of them. In Moria, Gandalf falls and the Fellowship thinks that he has been lost. But, he returns even stronger than before. Now he has the strength to stand against Mordor. In Shelob's Lair, Sam believes that Frodo is dead. Sam then proves to himself that he does have strength and courage. He esentially gets his strength here to help Frodo bear the Ring to Mount Doom.
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: June 08, 2004 11:45
1. What is the overall mood of this chapter? How does Tolkien create it?

The overall mood of this chapter seems to be one of urgency. Moods of anticipation and confusion are also prevalent.

Urgency: Tolkien refers often to the placement of the moon and the sun and the passage of time. He uses language such as, "haste, swiftly, halted only briefly etc." Aragorn says to the Dúnedain, "You find us riding in haste and danger," and to Éowyn, " I ride on an errand most urgent..." Later at the Dark Door he says, "...and every hour that is lost there will bring the triumph of Sauron nearer. Follow me." After the dead have been summoned Aragorn cries aloud, "Friends, forget your weariness! Ride, now ride!" etc.

Anticipation:
The Rohirrim express great fear of the Paths of the Dead. All are certain that Aragorn and those who follow him will die if they take that route. Théoden trembles. The riders turn pale (according to Merry). Éomer makes it clear that he will not take that route: he thinks it unlikely that he and Aragorn will meet again. Even Gimli is full of dread and continues to be through much of this chapter. Éowyn looks as if she is stricken and blanches; she begs Aragorn not to take the Paths of the Dead. This fear keeps us, the reader, on edge and wondering what is going to happen next.

Confusion:
We experience some of this chapter through Merry's eyes and he is "puzzled" (as was I). Right from the beginning of the chapter I found myself asking questions, as Merry, most likely does. "Where are we going?" "Who are those men and why are they here?" "What's going on?" Merry starts out riding with Aragorn so I assume he continues to do so until they reach the Hornburg; he hears about the messages from Elrond and Arwen and about Arwen's gift. "What does all of this mean?"



[Edited on 9/6/2004 by RubySandybanks]
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Post RE: 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: June 09, 2004 03:20
1. What is the overall mood of this chapter? How does Tolkien create it?

The mood of the chapter, to me, is urgency, more than anything else.

I don't fully agree with RubySandbanks image of *confusion* as such. I see it more as anticipation, surely everyone knew where they were going, and were just suffering from extreme nerves. No-one is sure what is going to happen exactly or what the outcome will be. Much like it must have been prior to D-Day or the beginning of any great endeavour.

For me, Tolkien creates the atmosphere of urgency by his intonations at how much time is left to reach Minas Tirith, the numbers of soldiers arriving, the disappointment that some troops were less than expected. The desperation that Aragorn appears to be wasting time by going a different route.

Also, I felt that this was Aragorn's first real test of his destiny. He seems to have finally accepted the fact of his kingship and all but withdraws from his friends. If I might conjecture, something similar to Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane.

What does shine through though, for me, is the feeling of loyalty, no matter what, and the bravery. Especially Gimli. The terrors he suffers, but won't let his friends or himself down. Again, I suppose like the soldiers 'going over the top' in WW1. I can't help but feel how much Tolkien drew on his experiences.

5. The Paths of the Dead:

For me, The Paths of the Dead symbolise the initiation of Aragorn into his destiny as King. He comes through as a strong, indominatable and unswerving person, now capable of shouldering the responsibility and pressure of leadership. He knows this is what he has to do and shows no fear.

As far as counterparts elsewhere in the books, I suppose there are some similarities in as much as the fear of losing people is concerned.
Sam and Frodo : Shelob's Lair; Frodo and the other Hobbits : Barrow-downs and The Fellowship and Gandalf : Moria.

Most of the characters are convinced Aragorn and his followers will never be seen again.
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: June 09, 2004 08:26
Interesting posts narithil and rosearielelven. Lots of food for thought. Thanks rosearielelven for you *bow* in the quote section for this chapter. I totally agree with you on that topic.

Okay, on to another question or two:

2. The meeting with the Dúnedain: did you like it and why (not)?

Yes, I did like this meeting. It came as a bit of a surprise but at least it was a good one. It was especially poignant since I can't recall anywhere else in the book where Aragorn is so openly exuberant. If there is another example in the book, please let me know because I have forgotten. He cries out Halbarad's name with joy, runs to him and embraces him. Aragorn says, "Of all the joys this is the least expected." I believe this statement expresses Aragorn's sentiments toward Halbarad beautifully.

What do you make of Halbarad, what kind of character is he?

Halbarad is much like Aragorn. He is competent and tough. Altruistic. He is trustworthy, humble, and noble.
I have the greatest admiration for Halbarad and the Dúnedain in general. For years, the Dúnedain, (Aragorn and Halbarad in particular) have been secretly guarding the Shire. I think that to do good work without expectation of reward or recognition is truly noble.

What is the significance of Arwen's banner and her words?
I believe there is a sense of urgency both in Arwen's gift of the banner and her words. In my opinion she is telling Aragorn that he is the hope and if he fails to act now there will be no hope.

Why did Elrohir and Elladan come with the Dúnedain?

Elrohir and Elladan, the sons of Elrond, are introduced to us in The Council of Elrond. They frequently ride with the Rangers to seek revenge for their mother's suffering at the hands of the Orcs.

3. In the previous chapter we saw Pippin without Merry, now we see the opposite. What do you think of Merry in this chapter? What is the difference with Pippin? How is his relationship with Théoden?

Poor Merry. I feel his loneliness and confusion. Merry is an in-charge kind of Hobbit. He is used to being in control of something. Now he feels utterly alone and feels quite helpless and useless. Like "baggage", as he puts it. Mostly he misses Pippin's "unquenchable cheerfulness". I think this shows just how important Pippin is the great scheme of things. Pippin has the amazing ability to put a smile on someone's face and lift their spirits.
Pippin has Beregond and Bergil who act as his peers. I don't think that Legolas or Gimli regard Merry (or any of the Hobbits for that matter) as peers. I think they think of the Hobbits as people that they need to protect (almost like children). The people in Minas Tirith believe that Pippin is a "Prince of the Halflings; Pippin receives a great deal of positive attention. Merry is more in the background of things.
Merry's relationship with Théoden is a profound one for Merry. Especially now that he is depressed. Théoden's special attention restores much of Merry's battered self esteem. The King gives him a horse and Merry, out of a deep sense of love, swears allegiance to King. Merry is given the title of Esquire. Pippin swore allegiance to Dénethor for very different reasons: hurt pride, obligation and a sense of love and responsibility for Boromir not Dénethor.

Phew...enough for now. :yawn:
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Post RE: 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: June 10, 2004 03:49
2. The meeting with the Dúnedain: did you like it and why (not)?

I loved it. When times are at their most dark, to have someone turn up to support you, and who you would never in your wildest dreams expect to see must be so uplifting.

Aragorn was delighted and elated. It must have given him a feeling of connection, their being his kin, that perhaps he didn't get from his other companions. He was positively bubbling with excitement.

What do you make of Halbarad, what kind of character is he?
A very strong person, perhaps someone who even Aragorn looked up to. He is stalwart, loyal and humble. Aragorn's reaction to hearing and seeing Halbarad was as though he was greeting an older, wiser, revered brother. In effect, Aragorn felt safe.

What is the significance of Arwen's banner and her words?

For me, Arwen's banner suggests a symbol of belief for Aragorn. That, together with her words make him realise that it is time to do his duty, what he was born to be, that without him hope fades and if hope fades, there will be no future.

Why did Elrohir and Elladan come with the Dúnedain?

Elrohir and Elladan are fighting elves. Have been most of their lives, joining the Rangers in skirmishes and battles. They are there as Aragorn's elvish brothers to support him and give encouragement when the time to take The Paths of the Dead arrives.
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Post RE: 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: June 10, 2004 11:43
4. What is her (Éowyn) relationship to Aragorn, what does he think of her, what is the meaning of the cup she offers him?

Éowyn is clearly enamoured with Aragorn. Aragorn finds himself in a delicate situation with her, which makes him feel uncomfortable. He feels compassion for her because he does not want to disappoint her but disappoint her he must.

I believe Aragorn sees Éowyn as a child. He is, after all, 88 years old at this point in the story. She is only 24. He has years of wisdom and life experience behind him.

Aragorn treats Éowyn with the utmost respect and dignity. His words to her are as those of a teacher to his or her student. I especially like it when he says to her, "Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised." Very Dúnedainian. I believe he leaves Éowyn with words of great wisdom. She is; however, too heart broken to hear them.

I think by offering Aragorn the cup, Éowyn is offering her service to him. It signifies a sacrifice on her part. To Aragorn it seems to signify a bond between her people and his.

5. The Paths of the Dead: what do you think they symbolize? Do they have a counterpart elsewhere in the book (for example the Barrow-downs, Moria or Shelob's Lair)?

I think that The Paths of the Dead represent the past, the present, and the future. I believe that ties in with the inevitability of change. Certainly all of the places mentioned here are steeped in history. Tolkien's characters walk through this history, stir things up, and manage to change things for the better and create a better future. We have one less dead army to worry about, one less giant spider (hopefully), one less Balrog and one less Barrow-wight. The dead army has gone to rest in peace, Shelob is defeated, Gandalf is transformed into a white wizard, and the Hobbits survive the Barrow wights and gain wisdom and their weapons. None of these places has been left unchanged.
This reminds of Bilbo's song: The Road Goes Ever On. So does time and change.
Ithildin55
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Post RE: 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: June 10, 2004 12:51
Re: Elladan and Elrohir coming with the Dúnedain:

After Gandalf had proposed the mission of marching to the Black Gates to face Sauron and give Frodo his last chance to complete his mission we have this quote:

“Then said Elrohir: ‘From the North we came with this very purpose, and from Elrond our father we brought this very counsel. We will not turn back.’” The Last Debate, RotK

I think Elladan and Elrohir’s presence show how desperate this fight had become. Elrond had foreseen much, apparently including the need to draw Sauron out, and he well knew that those who embarked on such a mission would likely not return. I think the twins’ presence there is also a very poignant reminder of the price Elrond and his family faced paying for their willingness to remain in ME to help the Dúnedain and other free peoples in the struggle against Sauron.

Ithildin *(


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Post RE: 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: June 10, 2004 02:12
Everything's been pretty well covered by the time I got to read this chapter and post, but I'm just going to disagree on Elrohir and Elladan.
I'm going to say something heretical, which is very uncharacteristic of me (when discussing Tolkien, at least): I think Elrohir and Elladan had decided to become mortal by the time of "The Passing of The Grey Company" and so identified withe the Dúnedain, with whom they had much in common with: they hunted Orcs (I think), they were part human, part Elf, and a little Maia (some Númenóreans were descended from their uncle, Elros). I think this is supported by Legolas' saying (I paraphrase) "they are fair and gallant as Elf lords". If they were Elves, they would be Elf lords, not "as Elf lords".
Well, mortal or not, I think they were hunting Orcs.

Also, I think the rest of the Fellowship did look at the Hobbits as peers, though the considerably older Legolas, Gimli, Aragorn, and Gandalf might have thought of them as almost children. However, the Hobbits might have looked up to the older, well-traveled, more mature members of the fellowship. Merry probably felt very lost without his 13-years-younger, innocent, unquenchably cheerful cousin. Suddenly a close friend was gone, replaced by Rohirrim and Dúnedain talking about serious, frightening, urgent matters he didn't fully understand.
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Post RE: 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: June 11, 2004 03:16
3. In the previous chapter we saw Pippin without Merry, now we see the opposite.?

What do you think of Merry in this chapter?
Merry's first emotion must have been panic. Here he was, his best friend gone, surrounded by practically strangers, and the only other people he really knew were about to ride off without him. He wanted to go with them, do something, not be thought of as a burden.

He was a little happier for a short lived moment, when he remembered that Théoden had said he, Merry, could sit and tell him stories of the Shire, when they returned to the King's house. Although his feeling of uselessness and fear of getting lost or overlooked, returned when the Dúnedain appeared, and he was uncermoniously dumped by Theoden's stirrup. Knowing Merry, he must have really been fed up, hence the image of him tightening his belt and drawing his sword. Little toughie.

What is the difference with Pippin?
In the simplest terms for me at least, I think Pippin felt safe and protected, he being in the company of a very old friend of hobbits and a great wizard to boot, and Merry must have felt totally alone, ignored, his ability to organise unnoticed.

How is his relationship with Théoden.
Merry's relationship with Théoden is immensely different that how Pippin's was with Denethor. Merry felt no guilty obligation to swear fealty. His was a choice of admiration and love. Here was a King, who could take the time to make a person feel wanted and interesting, no matter what their standing in the great scheme of things. His heart bursting with pride and love for the man, the only thing Merry had to give was his loyalty, service and, as far he was aware, his life.


4. What is Éowyn relationship to Aragorn
Difficult one really. I think Éowyn knew the score as far as Aragorn was concerned. She knew his heart lay elsewhere. However, I feel she was attracted to Aragorn, for his strength and sense of determination. These elements would have been very attractive to Éowyn, but I don't think she even contemplated love.

If my feelings serve me right, I think she was trying to use Aragorn to get her own way. She wanted to go into battle, she wanted to fight and not be treated as merely a woman and I think she saw Aragorn as a way of doing just that. She knew that her uncle and brother would never let such a thing happen, but hoped that she could sway Aragorn. But, as we know to no avail. In fact, she became quite vexed with him, when she didn't get her own way.

Reference "but her eyes were ever upon Aragorn, and the others saw that she was in great torment of mind." I think this could be understood, perhaps, in the context of her devising a plan as to how to convince Aragorn to let her go with him, rather than being lovestruck.

What does Aragorn think of Éowyn
I don't think Aragorn thought much one way or another about Éowyn. He think he admired her, probably thought she was an extremely strong woman, but I don't think with all the things he had to concentrate on, that Éowyn was a priority in his mind.

What is the meaning of the cup she offers him?
I'm not sure, again, that the cup had any relevance other than possible tradition, as in a drinking cup is given at the start of a Hunt or toasts are given before a battle. After all, she did also offer it to the other companions. It was not as though it was meant solely for Aragorn.

And there is her persistence again, right up to the end, she tries to convince Aragorn to let her go with them. And I noted Eowyn saying whe wanted to ride with *this company* , not just Aragorn.

Whew! Hope I haven't offended anybody's sensibilities with my opinions. After all, that's what they are, my opinions.

Again, I agree and disagree with other comments that have been made and found it interesting to see conflicting opinions.


scots56
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Post RE: 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: June 12, 2004 04:53
1. What is the overall mood of this chapter? How does Tolkien create it?

I see the overall mood of this chapter as tense...very tense. It's the calm before the storm, and it's almost like your breath is taken away because you are so wound up you can't breathe. All of the participants KNOW things are "coming to a head" and are taking the deep calming breath that they know they need to face what is going to come.

Even with the 30+ times that I've read this book, this chapter never fails to cause my muscles to tense up and my breathing becomes almost harder to do; I just generally get very tense during this chapter. Like seeing that accident that's going to happen, and you can do nothing to stop it.

How the characters deal with this tenseness, this inevitability of war, never ceases to amaze me. Aragorn truly comes into his own here. He's ready, he's prepared his entire life for this, he's going to do what needs to be done. Nothing will distract him from his destiny. The others, who may have faltered in the end, are strengthened in his courage and determination to fight, even when the odds are so overwhelmingly against them. Could I do the same? I always wonder....

2. The meeting with the Dúnedain: did you like it and why (not)? What do you make of Halbarad, what kind of character is he? What is the significance of Arwen's banner and her words? Why did Elrohir and Elladan come with the Dúnedain?

I always let out a HUGE sigh of relief when the Dúnedain show up. I just love how Tolkien makes you think, "Now what's coming??" when they are coming up from behind in the dark and the company can't tell who it is. Then, when they are feeling the worst is going to happen, comes help unasked for but often wished for. That was the first clue, when so long ago I first read these books, that maybe things were going to be okay after all.

"Either our hope cometh, or all hopes end. Therefore I send thee what I have made for thee. Fare well, Elfstone!" Arwen's message and banner signifies her faith that Aragorn will be victorious and come into the kingship. It's her actual physical way of showing that she believes him to be the true king and gives it to Aragorn thereby letting him know that she truly believes him to be the rightful king. She's had that faith for years and years and years. I've always liked that she said "Fare well" not "farewell". To me when the words are combined, they mean goodby. Not to Arwen. She separates the words, wishing for him all the strength and hope that he'll need in the coming days.

Elrohir and Elladan come because they believe that it's their duty to. They feel a connection to Middle Earth and want to fight to perserve it; if not for themselves, then for the others that remain. They have been hunting orcs since the torture of their mother in the orcs caverns, and who controls the orcs?? They want to destroy that which gives the orcs their life...Sauron.

3. In the previous chapter we saw Pippin without Merry, now we see the opposite. What do you think of Merry in this chapter? What is the difference with Pippin? How is his relationship with Théoden?

Poor Merry. He's in this enormous Middle Earth event not really knowing what his place in it is. He wants desperately to be worthy, to fight for the Shire, and is very afraid that he won't be allowed to due to his size. That hobbit stubborness that is so often hidden, rises up. He's going to help, and no one is going to stop him. Merry is much more serious here, without Pippin. Pippin always lightened things up, Merry following right along. Now it's just Merry. There's no one to lighten things up for him, and he needs to seriously think of what he needs to do and how he's going to achieve it.

Merry sees Théoden as a father figure. To Merry he's not so lofty, unattainable. He's more down-to-earth so to speak; someone that Merry can relate to. Merry has seen all of these very great and powerful lords and ladies, and he's such a small little hobbit after all. In Théoden he can have someone to look up to, follow, but at the same time be someone that he can feel that is approachable. Someone who will listen, find valuable, and in that Merry will be able to fight for and protect his king in a way that he's not been allowed to do before.

4. PbHf's Quote of the Week deals with the character of Éowyn. All discussion of her character goes there. Some points of interest for this thread: what is her relationship to Aragorn, what does he think of her, what is the meaning of the cup she offers him?

I see that Éowyn looks upon Aragorn as a way out of her situation of being always made to stay behind. She's had more than enough of that. She's seen those that she loves almost destroyed and wants to help in the fight. I don't believe that Éowyn ever truly loves Aragorn. She sees the title of Queen helping her to fight in the battle where she wouldn't be allowed to if she weren't queen. No one is going to tell the Queen of Gondor to stay home and embroider!

Aragorn, being occupied with the little thing of saving Middle Earth, doesn't at first really notice Éowyn. He sees her as someone to stay at home and protect her people. I do think he's kind of blind at that point. When she meets them for the last time before they head to the Paths of the Dead Tolkien writes, ...only those who knew him well and were near to him saw the pain that he bore. Then it hits him what Éowyn has been trying to tell him all along. She wants to go, not because she's tired of staying behind, but that she thinks she's in love with Aragorn. In his wisdom, Aragorn knows that she doesn't love him really, she wants desperatly wants to help, to do her part in the war against Sauron. He is saddened by the fact that he sees this and Éowyn doesn't really yet.

The cup signifies Éowyn giving herself to Aragorn, her abilities, her loyatly. Aragorn realizes this and cannot take it. That's what makes him so sad.

5. The Paths of the Dead: what do you think they symbolize? Do they have a counterpart elsewhere in the book (for example the Barrow-downs, Moria or Shelob's Lair)?

The Paths of the Dead symbolize Aragorn taking that last step from Ranger to King of Gondor. Only the dead will follow the king; he has to prove that his is the rightful king. He does so in spades. The Paths of the Dead is such a nasty place to be. Only by the love of Aragorn do all those men and horses follow him into such a horrible place. No one but a king could command that kind of love and respect that others would follow him to a place like that.

I don't think there's another counterpart to the Paths of the Dead for Aragorn. Moria was Gandalf's fight. His trial to become Gandalf the White. The Barrow Downs was the four hobbits trial, maybe even just Frodo's. He had to overcome his fear and feelings of self-preservation to put others first and help them. Good training for what he was about to go through. Shelob's lair was Sam's trial. He was the one who had to do the fighting to protect Frodo, to take the Ring and go on when the most important thing in his life was gone he thought. In each of those situations, these characters had to overcome what they percieved to be their failings and become stronger for others.

So in some respects, these events are related, but as to relating specifically to Aragorn, then his trial was the Paths of the Dead.

Whew! Good questions, Figwit! I had to really do some deep down cognitive work here.
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Post RE: 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: June 13, 2004 09:16
1. What is the overall mood of this chapter? How does Tolkien create it?

I had a feeling of both urgency and despair, when I read this. I think it's also one of the most emotional chapters in the whole book, and that adds to this feeling, imho.
It starts with singling Merry out and leaving him behind: in the few pages that deal with Merry in this chapter, he is said to be missing Pippin on three occasions. He also feels worthless, and small.
That feeling returns both in Éowyn and Gimli: they too seem to feel worthless and small.
Then of course, there's the actual urgency of the Grey Company's journey, and the very creepy description of the Army of the Dead. It is made very very clear that this is a fool's journey, really, and that they could all die – but a desperate man is driven to desperate measures.

For a chapter where there's so much urgency, there's really not that much actually happening: it's a whole lot of travelling, and talking about the inevitable (hence despair).

~~~
2. The meeting with the Dúnedain: did you like it and why (not)? What do you make of Halbarad, what kind of character is he? What is the significance of Arwen's banner and her words? Why did Elrohir and Elladan come with the Dúnedain?

I really liked the Dúnedain. They are an overwhelming presence in this chapter, just because they don't say or do anything. I like how Gimli depicts them:
'They are a strange company, these newcomers,' said Gimli. 'Stout men and lordly they are, and the Riders of Rohan look almost as boys beside them; for they are grim men of face, worn like weathered rocks for the most part, even as Aragorn himself; and they are silent.'


I also found it very significant that when the Grey Company leaves Dunharrow, someone comments that 'they are Elvish wights. Let them go where they belong, into the dark places, and never return. The times are evil enough.' They must have come across as very menacing, mostly because of their silence.

Halbarad, to me, is sort of Aragorn's Háma: a servant, but powerful through his servitude, if that makes sense. I like him a lot, though of course he doesn't do much.
Arwen's banner, I think, had a triple purpose: first of all to remind us of Arwen (because with all the Éowyn-stuff you'd almost forget she's still there), second to show us it's getting serious right now (Aragorn really is going to be King, hoozah!) and thirdly I think there's also something in her words that hints at the importance of their love for Aragorn's drive. In a way, she'll be right there with him when he decides not only the fate of the world, but also their own future.
And I have no clue why the brothers are there...

~~~
3. In the previous chapter we saw Pippin without Merry, now we see the opposite. What do you think of Merry in this chapter? What is the difference with Pippin? How is his relationship with Théoden?

I think the main difference is that Merry feels, and in a way is, abandoned. He feels small and insignificant, and I think his pledge to Théoden is more of a way to compensate for that feeling of worthlessness: he's trying to create a new role for himself.
What I do like is how Legolas and Gimli treat Merry as an equal, whereas Pippin is clearly treated as a child or a pupil by Gandalf.
I find the love Merry has for Théoden one of the most difficult things to understand in the whole book.

On the whole, I think the feeling Merry's left with is summed up well in this quote:
He missed Pippin, and felt he was only a burden, while everybody was making plans for speed in a business that he did not fully understand.


~~~
4. What is [Éowyn's] relationship to Aragorn, what does he think of her, what is the meaning of the cup she offers him?

I don't think she really loves him. I don't find it impossible she's attracted to him (after all, she's pretty young and he's pretty impressive), but I think it's more his looks and the image she's formed of him that she loves than him, really. She also sees a means of escaping herself in him.
As for what Aragorn thinks of her, I think he feels for her, that he sympathises with her but also understands what she's really about. I do like it that when he rides away, he seems to be in pain for her grief.
The meaning of the cup: in medieval romances, when a woman offers her cup to a man, that's a metaphorical way of saying she's offering him a whole lot more . BUT, I have to say in all honesty, there are instances where the cup also represents the leave-taking and the promise to return. So that's probably what Tolkien refers to here, sadly .

~~~
5. The Paths of the Dead: what do you think they symbolize. Do they have a counterpart elsewhere in the book?

I love the Dead. They rock!
That said, I think they symbolise the past. A King, in times when a King still had power that is, unites in himself all wisdom, all law, all goodness. He also unites all the people, and he unites the past and the future in the present.
We already saw the future in Arwen's banner, his banner; and the past I think could be seen as the Army of the Dead, called to fulfil their oath.

The 'fear' they spread is also something I really like: as I said this is a pretty uneventful chapter when you look at it closely, but exactly that uneventfulness is what makes it so heavy and so unbearable to leave (you just have to finish this chapter, I've always felt).
In that sense, to me, I am reminded of Shelob's lair.

I also like how Tolkien describes the Paths through the eyes of Gimli, who's really dying of fear almost.

A question I still have: where did Isildur get such powers and might? I had no idea the Númenórean kings were also magicians?

***

I wrote my previous post without reading the other posts, because I'm afraid I'm easily influenced by what I read . Some comments on what you guys already wrote (and it was a great read!):

- narithil, I absolutely adore your analysis of the fifth question. That's a parallel I had never really considered, especially about the Barrow-downs, but you're absolutely right!

-
I can't recall anywhere else in the book where Aragorn is so openly exuberant.
~ RubySandybanks


I think this may have something to do with being reminded of Strider. In Book 1, Strider was very different from the later Aragorn, and he gets more and more serious as we move further into the story (and come closer to Minas Tirith). I think in a way he's sort of thrown back into a different persona, a persona that isn't a King-to-be.

- I also like what you wrote about Merry, Ruby! Though I disagree with what you say about Gimli and Legolas not treating him as a peer, I do like your analysis of Merry as in charge of things, that describes him very well, I think. I also feel it sort of implies the same as what I wanted to say when I said he felt worthless: by his own standards he's become really useless, so he's trying to find a way to escape this.

-
Aragorn's reaction to hearing and seeing Halbarad was as though he was greeting an older, wiser, revered brother. In effect, Aragorn felt safe.
~ Rosearialelven


Wow. *goes back to book* Somehow that doesn't fit the picture of Aragorn I have in my head, but it certainly is a great way of looking at it!

- Ruby, I really like your idea about the cup, and how they both interpret it differently.
And your ideas concerning the Paths of the Dead!

- LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan, I really like what you wrote about Elladan and Elrohir. The same thought crossed my mind, but then I thought: Nah, Tolkien wouldn't mean thát. But of course, he could have and I really find it a very possible theory, especially considering the fact that, when Gimli says to Legolas 'Why didn't we wish for our kinfolk?' Legolas doesn't point out that there *are* two Elves with them!
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: June 14, 2004 03:16
Aragorn is clearly getting ready to take on his future role. Ever since the passing of Boromir, he has been gearing himself up and gradually strengthening himself mentally for his future role as a leader of all men and not just the chief of the Rangers, Giving him his banner reminds him of just what is in store for him and can only strengthen him for the future.
Having the Dunedain and Elrond's sons follow him finally gives him the first men he is involved with since leaving Rivendel that are loyal firstly to him; at a critcal time where he needs some followers of his own, as he is about to enter Gondor as the heir to the throne.
In a sense he is now showing himself as the leader of the remnants of Arnor as a first step towards his role as leader of all free men. I think that his going into Gondor with followers of his own makes a much bigger statement than if he would have entered with just Legolas and Gimli following.
Figwit
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Post RE: 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: June 14, 2004 10:45
In a sense he is now showing himself as the leader of the remnants of Arnor as a first step towards his role as leader of all free men.


Indeed PbHf, I sort of see it as him saying: 'No one's contesting me up North, now you dare to disagree with me down here!' In an accidental sort of way, because he didn't send for them.

That also seems to tie in with the idea of destiny, though I agree that it's probably Galadriel who sent the message but still.
Lieutenant_Gothmog
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Post RE: 5.II. The Passing of the Grey Company (*new question*)
on: January 10, 2007 05:16
What do you make of Halbarad, what kind of character is he?

I think he is Aragorn'smost trusted man, though sadly, he died very quickly. He alone stood by Aragorn as he looked into the Palantir. But the fact that he prophesiesed that his own death was soon to come showed the lengths to which his loyalty goes, as well as the the grim majesty of the common Rangers.

Why did Elrohir and Elladan come with the Dúnedain?

Well they were working closely with the Rangers for some time now and as Gimli said when the Fellowship set out: 'Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens. (might be a little different)'

It also showed how desparate things were getting for Elrond, sending out his own kindred after having protected them so long.
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