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atalante_star
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Post Was Morgoth created Evil? [keep ~ link]
on: June 12, 2004 09:36
Do you think Iluvatar created Melkor to become evil - to become the opposite of all that was good in Arda?

Or do you think it was a happening that Iluvatar did not expect - or even a manifestation of free will?

[Edited on 8/7/2007 by cirdaneth]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Was Morgoth created Evil? [keep ~ link]
on: June 13, 2004 03:04
I don't think it was in Iluvatar's original design that Melkor would become evil. But, he was given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and there was always the option that he would misuse those gifts - as he did, out of discontent, pride, and desire for power. In a way at least, it was a manifestation of free will; even though the concept of "free will" is only connected with humans in the writings, it has never seemed to me that the other races are just puppets, either.

But, it doesn't seem to have come as a complete surprise to Ilúvatar, either. He certainly had shown consideration of the possibility that some of the Ainur might try to improvise their own themes, and made it so that whatever they would do would not completely ruin the Music:
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.
arvegil
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Post RE: Was Morgoth created Evil? [keep ~ link]
on: June 15, 2004 02:04
Your question begs another question: did Iluvatar exist outside of time as we experience it? If the answer to that question is yes, Melkor's subsequent actions become forseeable, and Iluvatar knew, or at least should have known, how Melkor would behave.
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Post RE: Was Morgoth created Evil? [keep ~ link]
on: June 15, 2004 02:25
Yes, but that was only a possible future befoer the Valar were created. If Illuvatar exists in a time outside this time, he could have forseen many futures, perhaps in which Melkor did not misuse his gifts. However, in all worlds there must be some evil, or we would never know good. Good and evil are two sides to the same blade and must be together. Thus it is inevitable that if not Melkor, someone else would rise and become a dark lord. Just as it is with the one ring. If Sauron could not have it, another dark lord/lady would rise up. There must always be a certain amount of good and evil in the world, or the balance will be upset and there will be a gap, leaving room for a greater power to fill the gap and tip the balance the other way. Thus, instead of a perfect balance, there is a teeter-totter between the two forces. Throughout history, has there ever been a time when there hasn't been an opposing force to upset paradise? If it weren't for this, life would be boring and very little would happen. Ignorance is bliss until something bad happens seemingly out of the blue although there were signs that had been ignored. Everything happens for a reason and in the end, we are all wiser from it. Perhaps after we die the reasons for the events in our lives are made clear to us and we are wiser for it in the next life.

[Edited on 16/6/2004 by Rehadrin]
Eressëa
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Post RE: Was Morgoth created Evil? [keep ~ link]
on: June 16, 2004 12:33
I don't know....
I doubt Ilúvatar knew, because what does that make him? Some high and mighty lord that gets to make an evil creature that will haunt the lives of Elves and Men? However how can he not know? What would it make him if he had not the slightest of idea that one of the mightiest of the Valar would turn their back on him? At least he must have foreseen it when Melkor started his such for the imperishable flame.
However he might also have known it was important, that some of the most beautiful thing of Arda would happen through Melkor's rebellion, because things would take form that could not otherwise have been thought of....
It might have been a question of free will and using it, but we have already discussed the question of fate, if Ilúvatar is almighty, wouldn't he know? The question is really, what is free will? How should it be defined?
Did Melkor choose himself to become who he were? He didn't, he was a creation of Ilúvatar's, his fears and thoughts were given to him by Ilúvatar.... Can you fool the one who has created you? You might... But is it in the end not simply your creater that has chosed that so you will do?
What is free will? Can free will co-exist with an almighty creator?
Fionwe
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Post RE: Was Morgoth created Evil? [keep ~ link]
on: August 31, 2004 09:36
But didn't Iluvatar become angry when Melko played into his themes? If he would have known, I don't think it would have surprised him. and if he wanted it to be so, why should he become angry???
atalante_star
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Post RE: Was Morgoth created Evil? [keep ~ link]
on: September 01, 2004 04:02
Iluvatar was not angry at all when Melkor started interweaving his own melodies into the music. If we look at the Silmarillion:

The end of the second music .....
"But Iluvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged.

Then Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled

The end of the third music ....
In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Iluvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Iluvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Iluvatar, the Music ceased.

And why would Iluvatar be angry?
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.
elvishmusician
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Post RE: Was Morgoth created Evil? [keep ~ link]
on: September 02, 2004 10:28
Hey,

Here are my ideas. Please, if this doesn't make any sense at all don't take any notice of it. At the moment I am on only 3 hours sleep and as a result not really with it, so if I utterly confuse myself that's why.

Just a thought. When elves foresee things, do they always come to pass? In what I've read it doesn't appear to be that way all the time, though they are correct many times, but not always -if you get what I'm saying. My view is that they foresee what will happen if everything continues the way things are going. However later the choices made by people can make it so what they foresaw, is no longer what happens
(-is this making sense?).

I know that Iluvatar (well I saw him as) the all-powerful creator of ME, and he therefore (in my opinion anyway) be able to foresee everything, but could it be that he only sees like how I think the elves see?

Just forgive me for this diversion, but there was a post up (it still is if you go back a few pages) about theology in LOTR. I see a clear parrellel between what happened between Iluvatar and Melkor, and what happened between God and Lucifer. For those of you who don't know Lucifer was an arch-angel (don't know if I spelled that right), who was gifted the most in the area of music (sounds familiar?), who then decided that he should receive the glory, rather than God. Therefore God cast him out of heaven and he became Satan (which means enemy of God), Satan took with him about one third of the angels, who then became his servants. That's it in brief. Given Tolkien's relgious beliefs, he would have been well-acquainted with this idea and may have just been drawing a parrellel.

But back to the point. If Iluvatar knew the future and was faultless in knowing the future, than everything he saw that was going to happen, would therefore happen, do you think he could do much about it then? Unless of course he decides what he wants to see and then sees it and then it happens. I know I am difficult to understand but I'll keep going.

If there was no evil made in the world of Iluvatar, it would be perfect right. The inhabitants of ME may not have the choice of whether they want to follow the way of good or evil. And if the future was already decided than wouldn't they just be like robots? They would all just be good, all the time and honestly that would make for a pretty pleasant but awfully boring ME. Just think how hard that would be for an author to work with, how do you write a gripping story with no bad guy? I think Tolkien made the question to be left unanswered (as well as needing an enemy).

There's just a few thoughts personally, my view is that it was a manifestation of free will, once someone has free will they are able to think for themselves and therefore make their own decisions. If Melkor had been made with a free will, for it to be truly free will, Iluvatar wouldn't have had any control over his decisions.

Anyway there are just some very sleepy and mixed up ideas. :sleepy: . I'll probably read this post later and totally not understand what I'm saying myself but anyway.

[Edited on 3/9/2004 by elvishmusician]
atalante_star
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Post RE: Was Morgoth created Evil? [keep ~ link]
on: September 03, 2004 02:55
I found a good quote related to this yesterday. I must have read it hundreds of times without realising what it was saying :dizzy:
"For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever." (The Silmarillion, Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor)
Eressëa
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Post RE: Was Morgoth created Evil? [keep ~ link]
on: January 04, 2005 12:05
Stumbled across this thread again and it's actually pretty interesting... and atalante's last quote made me think about a few things...

Like -normally we don't see Morgoth as a creator -in fact we are told that he cannot create -"only" make mockery of things... If he couldn't create evil -then surely there most have been some sort of evil in the world before -or at least some sort of source that would have the potential to become evil... (if molded the right way)... If this source are to be Melkor -then surely he cannot have had the exact same character as Manwë from the beginning... Because if they did have the exact same character -wouldn't they have ended the same way? And since it didn't -what triggered the evil in one and not in the other? And could this evil ever have been triggered in Manwë... We're told there's not the slightest bit of evil in him -that he cannot understand it... Doesn't that imply that there was evil in some of the other Ainur from the very beginning -and if it is so then the evil must have been there from the start -also in Melkor... And then he couldn't have created it -could he...
But if it was he who "created it" -did he do it in the same way as he "created" Orcs -as a mockery of something -as a mockery of the concept of Good? But in the Elves there were from the very beginning a "gene" or a something to make it possible they could be corrupted -or in other ways forced or swayed to Evil (however difficult it would be) -if this small predisposition is necesary -wouldn't it be plausible to assume the same would go for good? Can evil be simply "created" out of nothing?

I don't know -this is pretty rambly I know, the quote just made me think... And if it seems this has nothing to do with the actual question of this thread -you may be right -I guess I'm just trying to figure out how Evil came to be in the first place -and by finding out that, trying to figure out whether it could have been created by Melkor himself (thus happening by no intent of Ilúvatar's) or if the only way Evil could have come is through Ilúvatar....
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Was Morgoth created Evil? [keep ~ link]
on: October 29, 2009 09:37
I don't think Iluvatar deliberately created anything to be evil, and it probably is a side-effect of free-will.
Ilandir
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Post RE: Was Morgoth created Evil? [keep ~ link]
on: October 29, 2009 09:01
I agree with you cirdaneth. I'm sure that Morgoth was initially good, but being the highest and most powerful among the Ainur, pride set in and a form of evil began growing within him - increasing ever more during the Music of the Ainur.
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cirdaneth
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