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atalante_star
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Post Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 17, 2004 11:16
As I am sure you are all aware, women seem to get a bit of a rough deal through most of Tolkien's works. They hardly ever have close friends, and indeed are often seen in a position of isolation (Eowyn, Elwing, Arwen after her marriage). Most end up married, "settled down" and producing heirs. And many are seen in relationships of unequal power – Eöl / Aredhel, Fëanor/ Nerdanel, Ar-Zimraphel / Ar-Pharazon, Éowyn / Gríma.

But this doesn't hold true for the Ainur. Of course, the Ainur are not truly male or female, they simply take those forms. Going back to the Ainulindalë:
"Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue … Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment … But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning"

But even then, there isn't any real division of importance between the men and the women:
"The names of the Lords in due order are: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas; and the names of the Queens are: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, and Nessa."

Which of the Valar do you think was most important? Which would Arda be most different – or most impoverished – without?

Can you see any significant differences in the roles of the men and the women? In the importance of their roles? Was gender even important to the Ainur or was it merely a convenience for the sake of the elves?

What about the pairings of the Valar? We have:

- Manwë and Varda
- Aulë and Yavanna
- Tulkas and Nessa
- Lórien and Estë
- Mandos and Vairë
- Oromë and Vána

How do the wives of the Valar add to or complete their spouses? Do you think any pairs do not seem to complement each other?

And what about the Maiar? We know of one pairing there – Ossë and Uinen. How does their relationship differ from those of the Valar?




(Moderator comment- normally I'd only move the first post, but this entire discussion seems worthy of transfer )



[Edited on 29/6/2009 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Figwit
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 17, 2004 10:07
And what about the Maiar? We know of one pairing there – Ossë and Uinen. How does their relationship differ from those of the Valar?

I don't have much time, but I'd like to say this: I think that the Valar-couples tend to complete eachother - Manwë is the Lord of the Winds, and Varda of the Stars - both aspects of the heavens are covered in one.
Aulë is mancrafted things and earth, Yavanna is also crafted things related to earth, but 'god-crafted' things: plants, trees, fauna and flora. They finish the element of 'earth'.

Ossë and Uinen are very different, I think, because Uinen doesn't 'finish' Ossë's element, but in stead moderates him. She is a calming factor on him - she literally lays on his waves and calms them, sooths them. I think she has more of an impact on her husband than the Valar-wives.

A bit too early and too stressy for me to formulate this well, but I'm sure it made some sense .
Argonath
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 18, 2004 01:22
Which of the Valar do you think was most important? Which would Arda be most different – or most impoverished – without?

Melkor.

By the way, also the one Valar who wasn't paired up with anyone. Or wasn't complemented/moderated by anyone else, perhaps a possible angle on why he turned to a negative.

Unless you see Ungoliant as his pairing. However, it doesn't really hold up. Besides the fact that it ended up as a rather messy divorce.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 18, 2004 10:32
Just a quickie post ...
By the way, also the one Valar who wasn't paired up with anyone. Or wasn't complemented/moderated by anyone else, perhaps a possible angle on why he turned to a negative.

Not quite - Nienna and Ulmo also didn't have a respective husband or wife

But Ulmo is an interesting case - he more than any other (excluding Melkor) is on his own. Nienna at least has brothers - Mandos and Lórien.
I don't have much time, but I'd like to say this: I think that the Valar-couples tend to complete each other ... Ossë and Uinen are very different, I think, because Uinen doesn't 'finish' Ossë's element, but in stead moderates him. She is a calming factor on him - she literally lays on his waves and calms them, sooths them. I think she has more of an impact on her husband than the Valar-wives.

I totally agree. I think the Ossë / Uinen partnership is very very different. She calms him, she moderates his wrath and destruction, and intercedes with him on behalf of the Children.

And the Valar ...

- Manwë and Varda - as Figgy says - they complete the element of "air" together
- Aulë and Yavanna - and they do the element of "earth", Yavanna crafting nature and Aulë making things of the earth
- Tulkas and Nessa - strength and speed
- Lórien and Estë - healing, rest and dreams
- Mandos and Vairë - history and fate
- Oromë and Vána - woods, growth, love of ME and repression of evil (woods and trees - Tolkien's favourite thing ....)
minuial_gil_estel
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 19, 2004 05:31
It's great to see others take thought in the way the pairs compliment eachother. As I read this chapter i was trying to remember and sort out who was paired up, and how they fit together... thanks for the help with that atalante_star!

Which of the Valar do you think was most important? Which would Arda be most different – or most impoverished – without?


I'm not sure how to answer this question. I think that all the Valar had their part and importance in the making and maintaining of ME. At first I thought well that's easy, Manwe and Varda because they seemed to be to most respected of the valar. However, where would ME be without the earth, or the water, or it's gardens and lands? Can someone be taken out of the equation... anyone at all? I think no, if any of them were not involved then ME would not be the same.

Forgive me if I don't really make sense... my thinking isn't always logical... especially at night (which is when I tend to post).

Can you see any significant differences in the roles of the men and the women? In the importance of their roles? Was gender even important to the Ainur or was it merely a convenience for the sake of the elves?


I think that the importance of their actualy jobs is not that different. As I said before, they all have their assets. However, maybe it's just me, but it does seem like more of the attention is focused on the "male" valar.

As for their pairing.. I think Figwit hit it right on the nail. The Valar compliment eachother, where as Ossë and Uinen seem to work more as a team. ONe helps the other function.
Elenisil
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 20, 2004 03:37
Can you see any significant differences in the roles of the men and the women? In the importance of their roles?

First of all, I believe women are pictured in mythology as they have been in society. Most of the pieces we deem as classics were written by men, or women pretendng to be men. This leave us with a male perspective of things, which most commonly reflected the views and costumes of the time they were written and only but "romanticzing" the women´s role when to please their own selves.

Now, when it comes to Tolkien...

Was gender even important to the Ainur or was it merely a convenience for the sake of the elves?

I believe his choice to pair the Valar had nothing to do with the elves, but it was in tune with the Music they would create. A perfect piece of music must be balanced in harmony and melody. It´s obvious to me that there should be a balance was well in terms of voices and sounds - male and female play different voices in a choir. And Melkor, being responsible for "disarranging" the music, has not balance and therefore no pair.

All through the other tales of Tolkien, women are again in their inicial position of only a co-character.

Which of the Valar do you think was most important? Which would Arda be most different – or most impoverished – without?

I believe all of them were equally important. Individually they´re be nothing. What is worth a sky with no stars or a garden with no birds and fruit? What would be worth a place of rest without a moment to heal? What would be mountains be worth it withoug a stream of water mysteriously running its course through them? The absence of any of them would have impoverished Arda immensily.

HoneyHobbit
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 22, 2004 01:26
Hello!! I'm new to the Book Club section, but not new to the Silmarillion. I'm on my third reading of it and usually at some point I get horribly confused. Each time I read it the confusion point reaches farther and farther in the book though.
I'm not sure what chapter this is in so....

Possible spoiler


Unfortunately I don't have my copy with me right now, but didn't Varda rejet Melkor? Would that mean by choosing her, was he looking for her to complement him, or work with him, like Osse and Uinen? Can anyone think of a reason why Varda would reject him?

Here ends the potential spoiler. Thank very much for starting this discussion. I find discussions on this book extremely helpful

Figwit: Just edited to size the spoiler alert down a bit

[Edited on 22/10/2004 by Figwit]
Nauma
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 22, 2004 02:44
Was gender even important to the Ainur or was it merely a convenience for the sake of the elves?

Itty bitty nitpick. I refer to the initial post:

Of course, the Ainur are not truly male or female, they simply take those forms.

But...
"But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning"

That indicates to me that gender is an essential part of the identities of the Valar, and that perhaps the Ainur are truly male and female- in a nonphysical way. The Valië are "estrogeneous" despite their fundamental lack of estrogen, so to speak. And if that's so, then gender differences aren't just distinctions for the sake of the Elves. (I would contend that the physiological differences are for the Elves' sake, though. Not to mention for the sake of the reader: try picturing Yavanna materializing as a "girly man". )
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 23, 2004 03:53
Was gender even important to the Ainur or was it merely a convenience for the sake of the elves?

I don't think it was just for the sake of the elves. Yet, it isn't important the same way as it may be for us. As it is stated in the book, they have "difference in tempers"; somehow, this reminds me of many same-sex couples (and some man-woman couples as well), where one partner is more "feminine" and the other more "masculine" regardless of their biological sex. (Certainly not exactly what the author himself had in mind, but somehow applicable.)
Miththoliel
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 23, 2004 07:05
Had not thought of the pairs complimenting each other before. They do seem to do so, the same as many "human" marriages.

And I think about how the females seemed to tame or calm the males. Can you imagine how the male valar would have been without them?:evil: Perhaps a female would have calmed Ulmo a bit.

I do think the gender was important to the Ainur.

I think the Valar all play an equally important role. If I had to choose, I would pick Manwe (not counting Melkor as one).


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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 24, 2004 11:06
Was gender even important to the Ainur or was it merely a convenience for the sake of the elves?

I do like Tolkien’s use of the word spouse in the Valaquenta. The Ainur are, after all, asexual beings. The word spouse can mean either husband or wife and makes good sense here. These are not traditional pairings, as we know them. They are asexual spouses.
That indicates to me that gender is an essential part of the identities of the Valar, and that perhaps the Ainur are truly male and female- in a nonphysical way. The Valië are "estrogeneous" despite their fundamental lack of estrogen, so to speak. And if that's so, then gender differences aren't just distinctions for the sake of the Elves. ~ Nauma

I agree with you Nauma.

I find that the words following atalante’s quote above are quite powerful as well:.
…and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but it is not made thereby

This statement indicates to me that the gender identities of the Valar were fundamental to their character. This quote, IMHO, is important too:
…for at times they may clothe themselves in their own thought, made visible in forms of majesty and dread.

It’s obvious from this statement that the Valar have the power to alter their shape and are not limited to their male and female forms. Yet I believe their gender identities would remain the same even though their physical shapes might change. Their gender identity is part of their essential being.

Certainly it seems that the Valar themselves do not consider one gender superior to the other. So in that regard gender is not important to them. As far as the Valar’s own individuality it appears to me that their gender simply is and is neither important nor unimportant.

I don’t believe that the Valar’s gender identities were simply for the convenience of the Elves. In fact, I tend to think that it was more for the convenience of Tolkien’s readers (as Nauma indicated). I know that I find it difficult to envision an asexual being with supernatural power let alone comprehend this being in any meaningful way. By giving them gender identities Tolkien gives us, the readers, not only a visual reference but also a reference of understanding.

I also believe that the Valar chose to clothe (it was written into the Music and part of Ilúvatar's plan) themselves as males and females because they so loved the Elves:.
Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after the manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar, save only in majesty and splendour.

This also seems to be a way for the Valar to praise Ilúvatar for they were in greater awe of him after he showed them the vision and understood a little more of his wisdom.

Another thought has occurred to me. By giving the Valar gender identities, Ilúvatar (Tolkien) could then pair them as spouses that complement each other. As the history of the world is written into the three themes of music, so would be the morality of the First Born and the Followers. Part of that would be monogamous relationships and procreation through those relationships. Ilúvatar could then be seen to have written the pairings of the Valar into the music as a role model for Elves and Men. Of course this fits in well with Tolkien’s Catholicism. Giving the Valar gender gives them validity to have spouses and live together.

It’s amazing how quickly my mind jumped to the words: wife , husband , and marriage when I read the word spouse.

Anyway I still have comments concerning Valaquenta but for now I only have one more comment.

It seems to me that Nienna would have been a perfect spouse for Mandos. She would have always been there (but perhaps she was anyway) to deal with the fallout of Mandos grim work (at Manwë’s bidding). I do see the wisdom in Vairë being the spouse of Mandos though.

Still thinking…

[Edited on 25/10/2004 by atalante_star]
atalante_star
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 24, 2004 11:37
Realllllllllly quick reply, more later, I have to shoot off in a second
It seems to me that Nienna would have been a perfect spouse for Mandos. She would have always been there (but perhaps she was anyway) to deal with the fallout of Mandos grim work (at Manwë’s bidding). I do see the wisdom in Vairë being the spouse of Mandos though.

Well I don't think Tolkien would approve of brother / sister marriages But I do agree - if you look in old versions of the Sil tales (e.g. in The Book of Lost Tales 2) Nienna and Mandos, though still brother and sister, are a lot closer - they live in a big cave system by the edge of the world and deal with the fea of elves together.

But I think the reasoning for Mandos and Vaire is that they are both about time. Remember for elves, really there is no absolute death until the end of Arda. Mandos looked after the elves during their time of healing and recuperation after their life / lives in Middle-earth and Vaire wove their lives in the tapestry of life.

Must rush - much more later! byeeeeee! :love:
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 25, 2004 09:11
Thanks for the info atalante . :love:

About those brother and sister relationships: does Tolkien say anything anywhere about exactly what he means by brother/sister relationships? Are some of the Valar brother and sister simply because they were born in the same thought? Or is it because they are simply close friends?

I imagine the main reason for these relationships is to help us readers understand the close relationships between certain Valar.

Somehow I assumed (from the Valaquenta) that Mandos’ part in this great tale was more grim than what you describe. I am looking forward to learning more about all of these wonderful characters.

Just a note:

I found it interesting that in listing the Aratar, Tolkien chose to use the word Lords for the Valar and Queens for the Valier. Normally we have Lords and Ladies and Kings and Queens. I wonder if this was a way to somehow compensate for placing the Valier in a secondary position (if only in the sentence). The word Ladies does not sit well with a lot of feminists today but I’m quite certain that it was a complimentary term when Tolkien was writing the Silmarillion.

Real life is interfering with my ability to write a lot of thoughts at this time. But I’ll be back...
Nauma
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 26, 2004 03:17
I found it interesting that in listing the Aratar, Tolkien chose to use the word Lords for the Valar and Queens for the Valier.

I've done about three minutes (literally) of research on this, so now I figure I'm qualified to post a theory. We know Tolkien was a fan of the old Germanic languages. More than a fan, I guess, and more of an obsessor. I think it's reasonable to assume that the Old English meanings of things would have been important to him. Lord, lady, and queen are all words that came from Old English. Here's how, according to the Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology (yes, I own one, what's your point?!? ):

Lord- OE hlaford, meaning "the head of the household on whom everyone depends for bread". The OED notes that it is, "like LADY, a peculiarly Eng. formation".

Lady- OE hlaefdige, meaning literally "kneader of bread" and having the sense of a female servant or dairymaid.

Queen- OE cwen, apparently always with the meaning "wife of a king". It's related to the gwen- in Guenivere, King Arthur's wife, and seems to have come right out of the Indoeuropean.

Now there's no real alternative for Lord, that I can think of anyway, but the idea of the world being dependent on the Valar doesn't seem out of place. Lady, though, isn't going to work; you can't have Varda being described with a word that once meant dairymaid, now can you? Queen is pretty unmistakable in its implications, and I'm betting to Tolkien, ever the scholar of old languages, it sounded a lot better.
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 26, 2004 10:40
Thank you so much for that definition Nauma . Now that makes sense. I thought there was something odd about that particular sentence but I couldn’t put my finger on it. It sounds like the Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology would be an invaluable resource especially with regards to Tolkien. *I will add that to my ever-growing list of books that I want for Christmas.* I always thought that the etymology of words would be a fascinating study but, like many things, I haven’t gotten around to it.
…you can't have Varda being described with a word that once meant dairymaid, now can you?

…try picturing Yavanna materializing as a "girly man". ~ Nauma
I have to tell you Nauma that I had a good giggle when I read these. You have quite the sense of humour.

Before I read the Valaquenta the second time I thought that Tolkien had used the word wife instead of spouse. I know now that he did not use it at all in the Valaquenta. I found an interesting definition for wife on the Internet:
Wife is from the verb to weave. (Saxon wefan, Danish vaevc, German weben, whence weib, a woman, one who works at the distaff.) Woman is called the distaff. Hence Dryden calls Anne "a distaff on the throne." While a girl was spinning her wedding clothes she was simply a spinster; but when this task was done, and she was married, she became a wife, or one who had already woven her allotted task.
Alfred, in his will, speaks of his male and female descendants as those of the spear-side and those of the spindle-side, a distinction still observed by the Germans; and hence the effigies on graves of spears and spindles. ~ Brewer’s Dictionary of Phrase and Fable
Then I had to look up distaff because I had no idea what that meant. The first definition has to do with the parts of a spinning wheel but the second and third ones are most interesting here:
1. Work and concerns traditionally considered important to women.
2. Women considered as a group.
I couldn’t help but think of Vairë the Weaver.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 27, 2004 07:43
About those brother and sister relationships: does Tolkien say anything anywhere about exactly what he means by brother/sister relationships? Are some of the Valar brother and sister simply because they were born in the same thought? Or is it because they are simply close friends?

Oooooh - I can now add some etymology - using the term siblings - while siblings can mean persons having a common parent, it can also mean something less precise as the word sibling comes from an Old English word "sibb" meaning "kinship".

And I would suggest that the brothers and sisters of the Valar are simply kindred in thought and behaviour - remembering of course that the male and female appearance of the Valar is merely a veneer over their true appearance.
Somehow I assumed (from the Valaquenta) that Mandos’ part in this great tale was more grim than what you describe. I am looking forward to learning more about all of these wonderful characters.

Mandos is an interesting character - he certainly has his doom pronouncing and scowly side, but also - I think anyway - that death is generally looked on compassionately in Tolkien, and Mandos brings elves home to the Blessed Realm. I don't think he's entirely as doom and gloom and fiery as other Gods of the Dead - Pluto or Hades for example. He is very stern though!
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 27, 2004 11:49
Queen- OE cwen, apparently always with the meaning "wife of a king". It's related to the gwen- in Guenivere, King Arthur's wife, and seems to have come right out of the Indoeuropean.
Ooh! And some earlier names of Melian were Gwendelin, Gwendeling, Gwenniel, and Gwenethlin! You're definitely on to something with the OE etymology!
Hokeysmoke
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 27, 2004 01:47
I for one, find this particular discussion very intersting as I have always wondered at Tolkein's view of women.
As for gender issues re deities: consider the Kabballah.
Now in the Judeo-Christian tradition we think of God ( Or Tolkein's Eru/Illuvatar) as a father figure and he is assigned all the complexities and incongruities of a male head of household.
One of the interesting things about the Kabballah is that it focuses on a more "feminine" aspect of God. One that is more akin to healing and unifying ( women after all have been historically been viewed as the healers of the household and are usually considered the glue that hold most households together) the intent is then to provide us with a more complete vision of what we understand as God.
I think of it like the answer to the question about who among the Valar could ME do without ( sorry I always mess up that whole paste thing )
Its about the balnce of nature: All things working together in harmony. No one note being of any greater value than the whole, yet without that note the whole is diminished. Remember: Even Melkor had his purpose in the grand scheme of things.
So there must be aspects of the feminine to compliment or offset the masculine ( or vice versa ) we could not live in a world that was all male or all female. we might not always like to acknowledge it, but we all need each other ( think how all those boys who took out their frustrations on their high school peers some years back tended to be loners or "outcasts"-IE Melkor, Sauron, Ungoliant-even Satan )
I for one would like to commend the late Prof T. because in the Silmarillion he has provided us with a more active view of the Mythic woman. A trasdition that goes as far back as Isis and Nut ( Egyptian goddesses-Ignore if you prefer ) Athena, Maeb and the Shinto religion of Japan. ( Japan's religion was originally Shinto-a more nature based religion and was ruled by sorceror queens )
Oh my, just realized I've been going on for awhile here. ( sorry us old people do tend to go on ) so, I'll just say thanks for letting me share.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 27, 2004 11:57
I for one would like to commend the late Prof T. because in the Silmarillion he has provided us with a more active view of the Mythic woman.

I totally agree - and its one of the many reasons I love the Sil. Women have as a prominent a part in the creation and evolution of the world as men (or really, for the Ainulindale one should say, the Ainur whose characteristics led them to be seen in ME as female were just as important as those who were seen as male). It always disappoints me somewhat that this was not taken forward into Third Age tales ...
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 28, 2004 07:52
True, and yet....
(I'm saying this because you guys have done LOTR and so I'm not spoiling anything-I hope! )
We see in the Appendixes that Galadriel did quite abit of butt-kicking afterwards ( Can you say I threw down them walls? ) yes its only in the appendixe but still it IS there and when you consider that in many ways Aragorn's strength and determination ( which I am grateful that PJ made more apprent in the film ) caomes in large part from Arwen's belief in him. she stayed in Rivendell, sustaining him in her thoughts. Indeed the reach of her love was in many ways far longer than that of Saruman's malice. so while maybe the ladies of the 3rd age do not take as active a participation ( too wished for more shieldmaidens or female Dunedain fighters ) they were there-Just consider how much strength it took on Galadriel's part to keep Caras Galadhon hidden?and she I point out resisted the ring you know-so I now love her with no dispair.:heart:
thanks, atalante_star it felt good to make a point someone else agreed with.
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 28, 2004 11:18
I do like that definition for sibling atalante.
I believe women are pictured in mythology as they have been in society. ~ Elenisil

All through the other tales of Tolkien, women are again in their initial position of only a co-character. ~ Elenisil
I agree Elenisil .

Manwë and Varda

They not only complete each other they are more because of each other.
When Manwë there ascends his throne and looks forth, if Varda is beside him, he sees further than all other eyes, through mist, and through darkness, and over the leagues of the sea. And if Manwë is with her, Varda hears more clearly than all other ears the sound of voices that cry from east to west, from the hills and the valleys, and from the dark places that Melkor has made upon Earth.
I find it interesting that Manwë is “dearest to Ilúvatar” while Varda is held “most in reverence and love” by the Elves. Yet, physically Manwë is closest to the earth and Varda is closet to Ilúvatar.

Manwë has the traditional male traits of being action oriented (wind) and Varda seems to have the traditional female trait of being passive (stars). Stars would seem to be rather set in place by most Middle Earth dwellers, I would think.

Manwë’s hearing is more acute than Varda’s. Sound and hearing came before vision and sight.

And, of course, we have the statement about Varda’s beauty, (in the second sentence of the paragraph describing her) which shows the traditional (and still) high value placed on feminine beauty:.
Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Ilúvatar lives still in her face
We don’t get a physical description of Manwë at all. We get a description of his powerful place in the great order of things..
The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor; but Manwë is dearest to Ilúvatar and understands most clearly his purposes

Aulë and Yavanna

I would agree that Aulë and Yavanna complete the element of earth.

Aulë is task oriented, competent and active. Very masculine. Again there is no reference to Aulë’s physical appearance. There is only reference to his might and deeds.

Yavanna is the “Giver of Fruits” and loves “all things that grow in the earth.” Very feminine. Again we see a reference of Yavanna’s beauty at the end of the paragraph concerning her. What a stunning vision!
In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwë spoke in its leaves.
Here we see the view of women as the ones that bind the family together. Yavanna is a part of the earth, the water, and the air. Beautiful.

“Giver of Fruits” can be construed to mean, fruit of the womb: okay, okay, perhaps I’ve read The Handmaid’s Tale by Margaret Atwood one too many times.

Yavanna would have to, of course, nurture all that grows in the earth. I think she’s a perfect mate for Aulë. She applies the finishing touches to his work.

Tulkas and Nessa

I agree that Tulkas and Nessa complete the idea of strength and speed.

Tulkas’ masculine traits of strength and prowess are mentioned in the first sentence. Interestingly, we actually get a physical description of Tulkas:
His hair and beard are golden, and his flesh ruddy; his weapons are his hands.
Nessa skill of speed doesn’t seem to lie in realm of traditional femininity. We don’t get a sense of her beauty either. The only physical description we have of her is that she is lithe.

I suppose she needs speed in order to keep up with Tulkas who, “rides no steed, for he can outrun all things that go on feet, and he is tireless.”

I suppose that can be seen as a traditional feminine thing to do: a woman following her man or maybe chasing after him. LOL

Nienna

We don’t get a physical description of Nienna in the Valaquenta. IMHO, she seems to be the most traditionally feminine character. She is completely expressive. Warm, caring, altruistic and emotional. She is completely devoted to others (and Arda). She is the nurse and the teacher. Perhaps she is too completely feminine to have a mate (like the nurses and teachers of old).

And yet, as atalante says:
…the Ainur whose characteristics led them to be seen in ME as female were just as important as those who were seen as male ~ atalante
Yes, their characteristics would seem to be as important as their male counterparts and yet somehow the Valier still seem to be less than the Valar. I know that sounds like a contradiction but I don’t think it is. In the realm of real power (making decisions and judgements), I’m afraid male attributes rule in Middle Earth. The females are generally left the important tasks of nurturing, beautifying and cleaning up the mess left behind. And I do consider these important tasks. Aulë, of course, cleans up Melkor's messes but on a much grander scale than what the Valier would ever have to do.

Oh, I must go now… hopefully I’ll finish this line of thought soon.

[Edited on 29/10/2004 by RubySandybanks]
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 29, 2004 02:16
Perhaps a female would have calmed Ulmo a bit.
That's interesting: Of the Valar and Melkor, Ulmo and Melkor were the most different. Melkor obviously was evil, and Ulmo seldom attended the councils of the Valar, seldom clothed himself in a physical body like the other Valar, and defended elves and men even when they were under the wrath of the Valar. (Very loosely, vaguely paraphrased.) And they were the only two without spouses.
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 30, 2004 06:47
And they were the only two without spouses.

Nienna didn't have a spouse, either. But, she was also very different from the other Valar, and one who in her own way worked to heal what Melkor/Morgoth had marred.
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 30, 2004 10:01
And they were the only two without spouses.

Nienna didn't have a spouse, either. But, she was also very different from the other Valar, and one who in her own way worked to heal what Melkor/Morgoth had marred.


Interesting thought to pair these up. Nienna is not so different from the other Valar, though: she too creates, a sort of sympathetic sorrow. She had her purpose before Melkor started to cause this sorrow, so Nienna's grief is inherent to the world...
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 31, 2004 01:49
From RubyS:
Here we see the view of women as the ones that bind the family together. Yavanna is a part of the earth, the water, and the air. Beautiful.

“Giver of Fruits” can be construed to mean, fruit of the womb: okay, okay, perhaps I’ve read The Handmaid’s Tale by Margaret Atwood one too many times.

Yavanna would have to, of course, nurture all that grows in the earth. I think she’s a perfect mate for Aulë. She applies the finishing touches to his work.

LOL if you're only seeing that connection because you've read the Handmaid's Tale too many times, then I must have too Well, I have, I love that book intensely, but there is a more general connection than just through Offred. Think of Demeter or the other corn goddesses of early religion. Yavanna is, I think, the equivalent of the goddess of the harvest, and that, of course, has old links with fertility.

and **spoiler for the next chapter** this analogue can be extended, with Yavanna creating the Two Trees (growth and summer), Malkor / Pluto destroying them (destruction and winter).
**end spoiler**
Nessa skill of speed doesn’t seem to lie in realm of traditional femininity. We don’t get a sense of her beauty either. The only physical description we have of her is that she is lithe.

I've always seen Nessa as a slightly changed version of Artemis / Diana. But now I wonder whether we can actually say that the Artemis / Apollo sibling relationship in Greek myths can translate into the Nessa / Tulkas spousal relationship in Tolkien.

Looking at some descriptions of Artemis:
Artemis is the goddess of wild Nature, a virgin huntress for the other deities. She is goddess of the moon, as her brother Apollo is god of the sun. ... She is often represented as a lithe young woman with a bow and arrow. Her femaleness is associated with youth and birth. The bow and arrow, with which she shoots her victims, represents death, often caused by sickness. Her realm then, as conceived by her parents is wild nature, with maidenhood and the protection of nursing mothers in that realm. Death due to sickness is also included.

Hesiod says: "Nor does laughter-loving Aphrodite ever tame in love Artemis, the huntress with shafts of gold; for she loves archery and the slaying of wild beasts in the mountains, the lyre also and dancing and thrilling cries and shady woods and the cities of upright men." (To Aphrodite, (ll. 7-32))

Hmmm actually, now I think about it, I like more and more the Artemis / Apollo and Nessa / Tulkas correspondence ...
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 31, 2004 03:59
And they were the only two without spouses.

Nienna didn't have a spouse, either. But, she was also very different from the other Valar, and one who in her own way worked to heal what Melkor/Morgoth had marred.


Interesting thought to pair these up. Nienna is not so different from the other Valar, though: she too creates, a sort of sympathetic sorrow. She had her purpose before Melkor started to cause this sorrow, so Nienna's grief is inherent to the world...
Oops, I knew Nienna didn't have a spouse. Anyway, she, Ulmo, and Melkor had in common seclusion from the other Valar.
She [Nienna] dwells alone... she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad.


The last time I asked a question like this, we ended up with pictures of Klingons in a thread about the Rohirrim, but I'm going to ask anyway: what's The Handmaiden's Tale about, and how does it relate to Yavanna?
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 31, 2004 06:58
The last time I asked a question like this, we ended up with pictures of Klingons in a thread about the Rohirrim, but I'm going to ask anyway: what's The Handmaiden's Tale about, and how does it relate to Yavanna?

Handmaid's Tale is pretty much essential reading - it is stunning. This is a description from Amazon, not very helpful as always, but it gives you an idea of the main idea of the novel:
In a startling departure from her previous novels ( Lady Oracle , Surfacing ), respected Canadian poet and novelist Atwood presents here a fable of the near future. In the Republic of Gilead, formerly the United States, far-right Schlafly/Falwell-type ideals have been carried to extremes in the monotheocratic government. The resulting society is a feminist's nightmare: women are strictly controlled, unable to have jobs or money and assigned to various classes: the chaste, childless Wives; the housekeeping Marthas; and the reproductive Handmaids, who turn their offspring over to the "morally fit" Wives. The tale is told by Offred (read: "of Fred"), a Handmaid who recalls the past and tells how the chilling society came to be.

So what has it to do with Yavanna? Well, Yavanna is the Giver of Fruits, which can be interpreted in the context of fertility. And in The Handmaid's Tale, fertility is a prized and rare gift. Though I'm sure RubySandbanks can enlarge on this greatly

Though of course fertility is always a hugely positive thing with Yavanna, with The Handmaid's Tale is a bittersweet thing - at once hugely prized but at the same time confining and demeaning.

Really, I would recommend reading it - its a stunning book.

*snerk* well lets see what completely non-relevant pics I can find this time
Well I can't really think of any, but here's a pic of Offred from the ENO operatic version of Handmaid's Tale ...

Image
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: December 26, 2004 03:47
I do not write much in this section, though I read every now and then. But this topic caught my attention, because I feel there is a similarity between this one and the Arwen/Éowyn topic in the movie forums. Before I go on, I must admit that I have never read one of the Professor's letters, so I am not sure about his thoughts on certain issues. Additions and adjustments on my post are ofcourse welcome.

Somehow, at least I think, the point of view on how a man/woman should behave is affected by our own society (our land, our habits). The vision of professor Tolkien on women is affected by his way of society as well. The thoughts about being a woman are changed since he wrote his books.

Throughout his stories, I always sense an adoration for women, because although they are quite rare in his stories, the women who appear are always (or at least almost always) either powerful or wise and sometimes both. In Éowyn's case, it is slight different, because she had not reached maturity yet, but in the books, we learned to know her as a (somewhat spoiled(?) and very unsatisfied) girl in her adolesence.

In the case of the Valar, I think their appearance is not so much as a gender-related thing, but more based on universal balance. Like in "without good, evil would not be recognised", "without light, there would be no dark/shadows" and so on. The most obvious balance is male-female, so it would not be strange that he tried to make this balance appear in this way (but I am not sure if this was the main reason); with the physical and destructive characters put into "male" appearances and the gentle nature and the ability to heal and grow (give birth) into "female" appearances.

In the case of Mankind: every donkey can put up a fight and declare a war, but I believe that is not what the professor declared neither for himself nor in the books as "strength". I think it is too bad that the "fighting women", the "she-warriors" are marked these days as "strong women". Yes, their bodies might be. But most of them had a somehow weak heart/mind, i.m.o. the women who actually did change the world were not she-warriors, but smart women, scientists, mental fighters, caretakers for the world (no matter how big their worlds were).

So I think it is not as much as "gender equality" but merely "translated character-aspects".
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: March 06, 2005 07:37
I agree, women don't have a big enough part in LotR, the Sillmalrilion, etc. But what would Manwe be without Varda? I think Tolkien was better about giving parts to women in The Sillmarilion. In LotR, there was really only one major woman, Eowyn. Arwen didn't have any lines, Ioreth was mainly just in the houses of healing, etc. I also loved (mostly) the attitude that Eowyn showed. She didn't iwant to be possesed by any man, and she wasn't afraid to fight. I just disliked the way she treated Faramir.
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: June 29, 2009 06:30
When I read the Silmarillion I noticed that Oromë was a male version of Artemis, the Greek goddess of hunting, but then I saw Nessa, Oromë's sister, and I noticed that she was Artemis's feminine side. I don't know if Tolkien meant to, but he split Artemis in two, her masculine side and her feminine side. It seems Tolkien believed girls could run with deer like Artemis, but only men should hunt. I am just guessing and Tolkien could have done this on accident.
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: July 02, 2009 08:58
quote:"Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue … Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment … But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning"


quote:"The names of the Lords in due order are: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas; and the names of the Queens are: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, and Nessa."


Which of the Valar do you think was most important? Which would Arda be most different – or most impoverished – without?

I think that all the Valar are essential - including Melkor. When you think about it, Melkor makes the world what it is - the other Valar are all bent on doing well by the Children of Iluvatar; he is bent on controlling them; he is the only difference. (Note: I'm NOT saying that Melkor's a good guy. But imagine the Silmarillion without him - you'd have no story at all. What's the point of there being a good side if there's no bad side - no contrast - to make you realize that the good is good? If that makes sense...)

As to which one Arda would be most impoverished without, that depends on where you're looking at it from. For example, who's the most revered Vala from the point of view of the Elves? (Varda). That's the Vala they would miss and mourn the most. For the Dwarves it's probably Aule (they wouldn't exist without him); and for Humans ... well, I'm not sure. The only ones who care at all about the Valar seem to have learned it from the Elves.


Can you see any significant differences in the roles of the men and the women? In the importance of their roles? Was gender even important to the Ainur or was it merely a convenience for the sake of the elves?

I don't think that the Lords and Ladies of the Valar differ in importance; they differ in personality. Tolkien says that the physical shape taken by each Vala was determined by their individual nature; and the Queens of the Valar seem generally to be more of the nurturing, caring type, while the Lords are more of the majestic, solemn type (solemn with the possible exception of Tulkas). So I don't think gender was something for the convenience of anybody - it wasn't something that could be helped. Perhaps the idea of taking shape at all was for the convenience of the Elves (or in honor or anticipation of the Elves).

What about the pairings of the Valar? We have:
- Manwë and Varda
- Aulë and Yavanna
- Tulkas and Nessa
- Lórien and Estë
- Mandos and Vairë
- Oromë and Vána

As others have said, the pairings of the Valar complement each other: "When Manwe there ascends his throne and looks forth, if Varda is beside him, he sees further that all other eyes, through mist and through darkness and over the leagues of the sea. And if Manwe is with her, Varda hears more clearly than all other ears..."

The stars of Varda decorate the sky of Manwe, and the living things of Yavanna cover the Aule's earth. The other pairings aren't so clear but there are usually clear relations The clearest is Lorien and Este, dreams and rest; then there's Mandos and Vaire, doom and weaving (for some reason Fate and weaving seem to be connected in almost every mythology. Hmm.)


And what about the Maiar? We know of one pairing there – Ossë and Uinen. How does their relationship differ from those of the Valar?

Uinen seems more like an opposing force to her spouse than, for example, Yavanna is to Aule. She and Osse don't so much complete each other as counter each other. She keeps him in check, but the seas aren't always calm. Unlike the harmonious Valar pairings, Uinen and Osse are at odds - which is probably why they're paired.
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: July 25, 2009 01:13
Fascinating discussion here. Thanks all for contributing.

Just a brief comment. I hesitate to say whose absence would most affect Arda. My take on it is that Tolkien's apparent spiritual and psychological views show a complexity of human characteristics. It seems especially important to show both the positive and negative elements in (probably most) of his characters. That conflict is the essence of the drama.

On another note, what really surprises me is how little of the gender equality apparent in Sil shows up in LOTR. The few women in the story seem to exist as background:

- powerful beings of grace, inspiration, wisdom and beauty: Arwen and Galadriel
- a woman with issues around gender role : Eowyn
- evil incarnate: Shelob (she, at least gets a fairly big role in the action)
-nasty and grasping : Lobelia Sackville-Baggins
-a nice, safe woman to come home to : RosyCotton

What is missing is a female character who goes through the internal struggles around good and evil; courage and fulfilling destiny, as do the menfolk. Eowyn has a pale version of that, one could argue.

Someone noted that Tolkien probably reflected the views of his time. Still, it's a real shame that he was capable of such complexity and equality, but it did not come out more fully in the work for which he is best known.
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“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 23, 2009 04:32
Throughout his stories, I always sense an adoration for women, because although they are quite rare in his stories, the women who appear are always (or at least almost always) either powerful or wise and sometimes both. In Éowyn's case, it is slight different, because she had not reached maturity yet.
This is the quote you mentioned Neenime.

Tolkien (and even I) lived in a world where women were meant to be adored and we were meant to present as adorable at all times. I found this concept sickening, and like Eowyn one sought ways of circumventing it. Men wanted to keep women "mysterious" and a little frightening. The epitome of manliness was to be a "strong silent type" or "a man of few words". For me, Arwen, and Galadriel are presented in this light ... strong and quiet, but with deep wisom when they choose to act or speak. Although they are physically absent from the action much of the time, their influence is ever present. Ths Tolkien retains the mystery, but gives them enormous power. For me that is a compliment.
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: gender equality?
on: October 23, 2009 12:10
Nicely put, Cirdaneth. I have never had the impression that Tolkien was in any way disrespectful of women, just that he had a limited view of their reality. As you say, being a product of his times, as we all are, that was almost inevitable. Both men and women were type-cast, so to speak, in limited roles that did not allow for the fuller spectrum of human qualities and behavioural patterns.

Estelglin, I appreciate your point about Melkor being needed on the story. So true. Carl Jung's theories of human psychology relied on the fact that all of us have a "dark side", a "shadow". It is in coming to terms with that side of ourselves that we become more whole.

On the larger societal level, opposing forces are needed to create change . In music, we need both the sound and the silences to make the music true. Yin - Yang, if you will. It is true at the sub-atomic level of our universe and has been grasped as a truth by the very wise for millennia.

Much of Tolkien's work seems to include the tension within characters, and not just between them, between their "light" side and their "dark" side. That archetypal level of awareness is, in my mind, one of the hallmarks of mythology - plumbing truths that are universal to the human condition.
“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
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