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Tcherepin
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Post Leaf by Niggle
on: December 16, 2004 07:33
I always thought this quirky story that you'll find in "The Tolkien Reader" was the most unique thing, and provided some real insight into how Tolkien thought about good and evil and morality.

For one thing, it seems to me that he felt that everyone could achieve redemption.... nobody was beyond forgiveness, and that forgiveness and healing in large part lay in simple work and in the natural world.

I wonder how Sauron would have fit into "Leaf by Niggle"?

Any thoughts?

Tch.
orthanc5
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Post RE: Leaf by Niggle
on: December 18, 2004 02:35
I own LotR and The Hobbit, but I did a card catalogue search to find if my school library had anything else by Tolkien, so I'm about to pick up The Tolkien Reader soon. I'll read Leaf by Niggle first.
Istarnie
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Post RE: Leaf by Niggle
on: December 21, 2004 02:56
I find "Leaf by Niggle" fascinating. I am not sure that I read from it that *everyone* could achieve redemption, or if that indeed was what Tolkien thought. but it does seem to hold out a lot of hope. I do think you have a very good point about forgiveness and healing could be brought about through 'simple' work, and the natural world.Though the individual had to willingly co operate with the process.

Sauron! Now there's a thought! Is redemption possible for Sauron..? I think he had a few more 'serrious' issues than being over occupied with his painting, and resentfulness at his neighbour's needs..but then again, what might constitute Sauron's painting? Domination of Middle Earth perhaps....would redemption be through learning to restore what he had helped to mar?. What about his neighbour's needs?...Sauron tends to be a loner I think...he doesn't do 'team work'.Maybe he needs to be put somewhere with Saruman for a while! This is interesting...I must think more about it!
atalante_star
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Post RE: Leaf by Niggle
on: December 21, 2004 03:50
but then again, what might constitute Sauron's painting? Domination of Middle Earth perhaps

If you follow that thought back to Melkor, you might like to read this article on the Morgoth Element - Morgoth's "painting".
Is redemption possible for Sauron..?

No - well, I don't think so ...
Celebrian
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Post RE: Leaf by Niggle
on: December 21, 2004 07:39
Personally I always thought Niggle was Tolkien and the painting was Middle Earth. Real life continued to interrupt and he never really quite finished all the work he envisioned because each new aspect which he created caused more ideas to spring up. Even so, others (Parrish) were able to enter into it, help develop it and enjoy it, even after he moved on. I think he found great pleasure in the idea that others would enjoy viewing and adding to the thing he had created.
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Leaf by Niggle
on: December 21, 2004 12:32
I haven't read "Leaf by Niggle", but from what I remember from Humphrey Carpenter's biography, he also thought Niggle was Tolkien.
Tcherepin
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Post RE: Leaf by Niggle
on: December 23, 2004 05:22
Is Sauron Niggle, or is Sauron Parrish? Or neither?
orthanc5
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Post RE: Leaf by Niggle
on: January 02, 2005 03:02
I don't think that Sauron is either of them. I agree with Celebrian, and that Parish shows how other people can join into to Tolkien's world. What did people interpret the Voices to be?
Elioclya
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Post RE: Leaf by Niggle
on: May 09, 2005 10:36
I'm not really sure... I read the story last week and really enjoyed it (so much so that I nearly missed my exam :blush but I didn't really try to interpret it too much. Carpenter definitely likens Niggle's painting of the Tree to Tolkien's creation of Middle-Earth, and I think maybe it can be interpreted as showing Tolkien's fear - or perhaps rather his knowledge - that he would never get to finish his work. He certainly made arrangements with Christopher Tolkien so that it would be continued after his death, so maybe the miraculous creation of the Tree after Niggle moves on could be Tolkien's hope that he would one day find his own work finished? Just a thought

[Edited on 9/5/2005 by Elioclya]
hobbitnamedeliza
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Post RE: Leaf by Niggle
on: May 12, 2005 03:04
I haven't read LEAF BY NIGGLE (now, though, I certainly will!), but I can tell you what I believe Tolkien believed about redemption. As a devout Catholic, Tolkien would most definitely believed that anyone could achieve redemption through faith & good works. Anyone, that is, except one who willfully (that means with full knowledge and full consent of the will) turned their back on God. That is the one unforgivable sin by it's very nature (one can't ask forgiveness of a God one doesn't believe in, accept, want, need, desire...etc.) So, Sauron would, presumably be beyond redemption by this definition. Being a Maia, he would have full knowledge of Eru, and full knowledge of Melkor. He chose one over the other, accepting the consequences.

Hope this helps. And thanks for cluing me in on LEAF BY NIGGLE. I've always wondered about it, and now I can't wait to read it.
Morna_Child_of_Eru
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Post RE: Leaf by Niggle
on: June 10, 2005 09:36
I'll try to pick that one up.

Just to get this out there, one of the fairly common beliefs of Christianity is that all humans (or, in Tolkien's case, all the children of Illúvatar) have redemption available to them, but the fallen angels are beyond hope.

1 Peter 3:9 and Hebrews 2:16
NeatNicki
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Post RE: Leaf by Niggle
on: June 17, 2005 08:00
I've only found Leaf by Niggle on Amazon.co.uk and they are to be shipping that in 4 weeks!! :cry:
Nowhere else seems to carry it and I've done multiple searches... I actually ended up buying the Poems and Stories collection since that was the "best" value I could find (I mean, I could have purchased it singly for $4, but somehow that didn't seem as worth it)... My Tolkien library seems to be never-ending!
Mirandilwen
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Post RE: Leaf by Niggle
on: September 16, 2007 03:21
Leaf by Niggle is one of my favorite short stories! Most people agree that this is the most autobiographical story Tolkien wrote. I'd say that the painting represents his entire "sub-creation"- he was always "niggling" at it, trying to refine the subtle details (like the linguistics and names), getting lost in them and neglecting the "bigger picture." Parish would be the outside duties and destractions. The workhouse is sort of a cleansing, purgatorial stage in his journey toward the heavenly mountain. To me the stern First Voice is the All-Just God the Father and the Second Voice is a merciful Jesus Christ at a personal judgement for Niggle.
On another note- Tolkien believed that every human could achieve redemption- that even the Orcs (who used to be Children of Iluvatar) could repent. But Sauron's more powerful, angelic mind, once made up, could not be changed. He doomed himself for eternity, and could not repent once his will was set.
cirdaneth
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Post Re: Leaf by Niggle
on: February 16, 2013 11:27
*Bump
tarcolan
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on: May 17, 2013 02:02
I cannot hold my tongue any longer. 'Leaf By Niggle' may be Tolkien's exemplar of a fairy story but to me it is the opposite. I detected allegory by the second paragraph and so thinly veiled that it may as well have been a straight theological essay. It appears to do exactly what Tolkien claims to have detested, which is to willfully dominate the reader. This is all the more unforgivable if it was aimed at children. As a straight story it has nothing to commend it, having little in the way of plot and a disjointed and uncomfortable style. The characters are poorly described and do not encourage empathy or even sympathy. At best it is a vehicle to promote the discussion of themes such as redemption, and no more.

Well, that's me done.
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Ilandir
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on: May 18, 2013 03:30
I've always found the story to be fascinating on two levels: one as a simple short story of a man's journey towards a fulfilled dream and the other on an allegorical level (possibly the only one existing in any of Tolkien's works).

Tolkien is acting as a subcreator (discussed in much detail in his elaborate and extremely interesting essay "on Fairy Stories". Through Niggle, he seems to be channeling the qualities of the artist (aka "subcreator) who is creating this "canvas" upon which to shape his own imaginary world. The tree acts as the foundations of this world, "branching" out into different areas and the Niggle's obsession on a single leaf may reflect the intensity that Tolkien brought to his own work in trying to enhance and elaborate each individual story in his legendarium to the utmost detail.

The final wish and goal of each of these artists would be to inhabit their own creations and experience them "first hand" - something which Niggle ultimately manages to accomplish.

At least, that the way I've always seen it ...
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