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Elven_Light
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Post Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: January 30, 2005 05:10
Numenoreans have long lives (like aragorn) but they stilll die. What i don't get is like how they say the Kings passes on the crown ect to their heirs, and then 'give up their life' like Aragorn had.

So do they like lay down and just wait and wait till they die or do they magically die at their own will? Because i know they can live even longer because Aragorn said something like "would you rather me fall from the thrown old and witless" (to arwen) thats probabliy not even close to what he said but something alike.

[Edited on 1/3/2010 by cirdaneth]
Earnur
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: January 31, 2005 01:11
Interesting!

I'm definitely not sure how they die in such cases. Maybe it's some kind of Elven power that has been passed on from Elros. Can't really answer this question. Just another one of those Tolkien mysteries I guess
Nenthule
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: January 31, 2005 01:21
I think that theyhad to die, because in Akallabeth, it says that Ar-Pharazon "Felt death approaching", so he decided to attack Valinor. I think that they had to die, but they knew when, and they could choose to go with dignity rather than clinging onto life.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: January 31, 2005 04:21
We don't really know _how_ it is that the Númenoreans (and really particularly those of the Line of Elros) were able to just lay down their lives, but it was considered the noble and dignified thing to do.

They did not all do it. Some held on, clinging to life and wishing for a way to extend their lives further. Some spent years searching for solutions to death. Some held onto their lives until they were mad, denying their sons lordship in the prime of their lives.

But what was 'proper' and considered the 'right' thing to do, was to hand over the sceptre willingly and then, before you grew old, feeble, and possibly senile, simply lay down and allow yourself to die. It was just something special that those peoples were able to do of their own free will.
Annûniel
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: January 31, 2005 07:17
I'm pretty sure that they are able to choose the time of their death if they feel it necessary. Tolkien was probably playing on the ideas that suicide could be an honorable act. There are some cultures that practice this, or practiced it in the past.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: January 31, 2005 08:16
To me, the laying down of one's life, as Aragorn did when it was 'his time' and slaying oneself as an act of suicide are entirely different, and I would say that Tolkien thought so as well.

Gandalf specifically says to Denethor as the steward is about to take his own life:
" Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death. And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death. "


It was not simply a matter of saying, "OK I want to die now, I will die." But rather, when it was their 'time' to die, before they started to lose themselves to old age, then they could lay down and die. I think that maybe it was even an appointed time and that the person could tell when it was time.

But, in reality we do not know exactly how it worked. Still though, I do not think that suicide and laying down one's life were the same.
Eressëa
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: January 31, 2005 11:04
Still though, I do not think that suicide and laying down one's life were the same.

No definently, I don't think they were -or would be considered -the same in any way...

As Nienna said, to lay down ones life must require some sort of 'insight' to make the death okayed... The Númenoreans didn't choose their hour of death in the matter that they could lay themselves doown at any times -they would need to 'read the signs' that showed them it was time.... I believe if they should be able to lay down their life it would require the time to be the needed... Denethor did not simply lay down his life -he wanted to use fire etc -the death would not come 'voluntarily at his calling' but should be 'forced'.... There is a difference....
Annûniel
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: January 31, 2005 12:28
None of these cultures would actually call it "suicide" but in all honesty, it is virtually the same. But then again I'm using real world cultures...

I'll have to agree that in those terms it's not the same. It's probably not the same in ME either. But I think Tolkien took the concept of the already existing cultural belief to the next level.
daffadowndilly
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: January 31, 2005 12:49
i think that the numenoreans could tell to some extent when they would die. then they could try to stay alive and they would just die of old age eventually, or they could die with dignity.
i think this was very different from suicide. I think suicide is causing your own death prematurely to escape from tough times. The numenorean kings, on the other hand, released life when it was time.
Nolimon
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: January 31, 2005 03:37
I don't wish to post unnecessary spoilers, so I'm just going to suggest you all read Unfinished Tales, especially the chapters of Aldarion and Erendis and that Of the Line of Elros and the notes that followed...the nature of their life, and death, are discussed there.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: February 01, 2005 09:53
Actually Nolimon, there is a general consensus that there can really be no spoilers in the Book Forum, and I for one am curious as to what your personal views are on this subject. So if you don't mind, why not go ahead and share them
RiverWoman
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: February 01, 2005 11:00
In his discussion of Numenorean/Gondorian culture, Tolkien expresses severe disapproval of the desire to hold on to life after its natural limit. I think this reflected some of his personal religous belief - he says that death was actually a GIFT to man, and it was only fear of the unknown spread by Morgoth that caused death to be feared and men to attempt to unnaturally lengthen their lives. Bundled togther with this avoidance of natural death is the custom of putting too much attention into building grand tombs and tendancy to marry late and have small families - so that there is a magnificant "city of the dead" but in the city of the living houses stand empty and neglected.

I think today Tolkien would be completely against any kind of "assisted suicide" but also against keeping people alive on machines that have lost all hope and dignity for life. I think he might also oppose, on another level, people who are so obsessed about living as long as possible they give up the simple pleasures of enjoying satisfying meals and moderate alchohol consumption and take every vitamin and follow every new theory on how to live "forever".
ArFeiniel
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: February 05, 2005 04:50
I totally and completely agree with RiverWoman (and Tolkien for that matter).

As far as the death of the kings, it is an idea that is really incomprehensible to us. Humans cannot choose when they will die unless it is by committing suicide, assisted or not - both of which are wrong. It seems to me that the kings being able to choose their time of death is not them choosing to die, but rather them knowing that it is time for them to go and not fighting it; being willing to die, giving up their spirit gracefully and with dignity. Wouldn't it be nice if we could do the same?

Of course, I guess the answer to that would be what RiverWoman already said about keeping people alive with machines and tubes. Not very dignified if you ask me. My grandpa was put into hospice before he died, and I think it was an excellent decision. Because, in a way then, he did have a choice. He hung on to life for a lot longer than we thought he would because there were several things he wanted to see finished before he died. But then when he felt ready, he was able to relax and just let go. God took him in his sleep very calmly and without any machines to make him stay longer than he was meant to or wanted to.

So, on second thought, I guess we do kinda have the same option. Wonder if that was partly Tolkien's meaning?
Puppet_Master
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: February 06, 2005 05:47
When I read Aragorn dead had no idea about Numenoreans deciding their own dead but people cleared this for me.
Interesting, a very interesting fact Tolkien in this point, desicion to died for your own will, when life is no longer useful.
I understand it, as I understan too when Tolkien make a character suicide.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: February 06, 2005 07:12
I can only think of one or two characters actually considering suicide ,and with one exception, they weren't exactly active participatory suicides. The exception of course is Turin, who committed suicide by throwing himself onto his sword.
As to the Kings of Numenor, they tended to give up the sceptre to their heirs before they started to seriously decline in health with advancing age. Some of them lived as long as 20 years after giving up the scepter and they were all given the gift of being able to give up their lives while their minds were still good. I don't know that I'd call this ability to give up yoiur life as suicide as they didn't so much take their own lives, rather they simply let it flow away when it was time. Arwen gave up her life in a similar fashion.
Elves, in general, could not be considered as suicides as they know where ther souls (fëa) go after the passing of their flesh.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: February 07, 2005 07:56
I'm not *entirely* sure this has great relevance to the discussion - and then it is really far too early in the morning to post, but anyway ...

Reading some of the above posts got me thinking about funerary customs in ME. Do we know if the Numenoreans had funerary customs like Gondor did - i.e. enbalming and then entombing in an equivalent of Rath Dinen?

If so, it just seems a bit weird to me - a culture where death was seen very much as a step in the natural order of things, where life could sometimes be gently put aside when completed, which then had elaborate after-death rituals. Maybe (probably) I'm completely wrong, but I don't think I'd tend to associate elaborate rituals and after-death reverence with cultures that are more comfortable than others with the process of death.

We don't know much about elven burial, but the few cases I can think of, bodies were simply buried under mounds, as were the lines of kings of Rohan. Gondor, on the other hand, has Rath Dinen, embalming and entombing ...
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: February 08, 2005 04:20
As far as I can tell, we know little about the Númenorean's funerary customs, until the point where they began to turn against the Valar, the ban, and started to wish greatly for prolonged life.

During the time of Tar-Ancalimon (whose father clung to life until he was very bad off) they began to build great tombs in which to lay their dead and they tried to mix up concoctions that would either prevent death or would allow them to reverse it. And it was also at this same time that the lengths of their lives began to wane.

So it seems that as long as their lords accepted death as an inevitability, maybe they had other burial rituals, but once they started to go against such things, that is when they started to use the rituals that were then continued even in Middle-earth. Even the Faithful, who still had reverence for the Valar, grew to wish for longer life, though not to the extreme the King's Men took it to.
ArFeiniel
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: February 08, 2005 09:28
So do you think that Aragorn did away with all of the burial rituals? After all, Rath Dinen did burn thanks to Denethor, didn't it?
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: February 09, 2005 08:59
So do you think that Aragorn did away with all of the burial rituals? After all, Rath Dinen did burn thanks to Denethor, didn't it?


Not the whole Rath Dínen, just some interiors of the crypt of the Stewards. Remember, the crypts were made of sturdy stone, and couldn't be destroyed by such a fire as Denethor's pyre; the crypt of the kings certainly remained intact. Aragorn was buried there, like the ancient kings of Gondor.
LadyBrooke
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: March 11, 2007 01:01
I would imagine that even before they started rebeling they would have some funeral practices. they would most likely have embalmed and buried them in tombs or coffins at least because otherwise your ancestors might rot/ be eaten by animals/ dug up by otlaws/ any combination of the above. Even if you do believe it is a gift you don't want any of the above to happen to your ancestors bodies.
Gwenniel
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: February 26, 2010 02:51
The whole thing actually came to me as a shock. I had never thought about this getting a new king. I just, maybe slightly naively, thought they go just like: "Hey son, I´m old. Now it´s your turn to rule this land..." You know. Pass it on without dying.
In fact I didn´t encounter this until i read The internet Movie Database´s Q&A on this matter. What happened to the rest of the fellowship...Aragorn served his term as King and then committed ritual suicide, as was tradition of old in Numenor, so that his son, Eldarion, could take up his mantle of King. Gosh, that shocked me! I immediately thought suicide in a similiar way as Denethor or Turin´s death... it´s good to hear it´s not like that.
I must say my juvenile thought seems slightly similiar to "the real thing". And far more pleasant than e.g. drinking poison just so that your son would get to reign.

But what if the last sons were dead, and the king couldn´t keep on living forever/get kings/whatever. Did queens ever get to rule the country?
:dizzy:
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Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: February 26, 2010 05:37
In Númenor, they did have a few Ruling Queens; there is a short entry about them in the Library. In Gondor, however, this rule was not in use, and at least before Aragorn's reign, if a king died without leaving a son, the crown went to a brother or nephew, or the closest male relative in general.

(And, "ritual suicide" is an extremely bad choice of words to describe the voluntary giving up on life by the Númenorean kings. Shows how much the folks at IMDb know...)
Gwenniel
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: February 28, 2010 02:41
Yeah, I thought there were some ruling Queens... But not in Gondor? That´s sad. Maybe later in fourth age.
Imagine what would have then happened if Aragorn had got no sons. They´d be back to the start with no kings!
Yes, ´ritual suicide´ sounds kinda gloomy, and strange for those royal proud men so scornful of "the heathen kings of old"
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: February 28, 2010 05:44
If the Gondorians had recognized female succession, a lot of trouble might have been avoided, and the South and North Kingdoms reunited much earlier. Arvedui, the last king of Arthedain and the only Dúnadan ruler in the north at the time, was married to Fíriel, daughter of the king of Gondor. Both Fíriel's father and two brothers fell in battle, leaving Gondor without a male heir. Arvedui made a claim on the throne of Gondor, based on the descent of both himself as Isildur's heir, and his wife as the only surviving child of the king of Gondor, but the Gondorians rejected his claim, because they only recognized male succession, and only from Anárion's line. So, the crown went first to Eärnil and after him to Eärnur, with nearly disastrous consequences, and Arthedain also was overcome by the army of Angmar. This all is told in Appendix B of the LOTR, in the histories of Gondor and Arnor.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: February 28, 2010 10:11
.Aragorn served his term as King and then committed ritual suicide, as was tradition of old in Numenor, so that his son, Eldarion, could take up his mantle of King
.

Ritual suicide is an extreme term for the way the Numenorian Kings gave up their lives.
Calling Aragorn's passing a ritual suicide makes one think that he did something formal like fall on a knife, or something similar to the way failed Japanese samurai are portrayed as committing seppuku, while all he likely did was simply lie down and allow his consciousness to flow away from his body.
Findhoem
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: March 01, 2010 03:46
So do they like lay down and just wait and wait till they die or do they magically die at their own will?


There are some legends (not about Numenorians, but people in the past), that our ancestores knew when they should die. And they came to the special places, lay down and died in a short period of time. They didn't commit suicide. They just knew. May be, the same Numenorians did. Usually a person lives while he or she has the goal or mission.
Hanasian
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Post RE: Numenorean King's Deaths...
on: September 06, 2010 08:56
I always assumed their spirit freely gave up the body and departed, leaving a dead body. No suicide, or clinging to life in an evermore decrepit body.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
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