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atalante_star
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Post Masters in Mythology: "and Men usurped the sunlight"
on: February 15, 2005 09:37
This small little chapter actually foreshadows the whole of the rest of Tolkien's mythology, from the First Age to the Fourth Age. It also lays out pretty clearly the long-term relationship between Elves and Men, and shows their relative purposes in the evolution of Arda.
"In after days, when because of the triumph of Morgoth Elves and Men became estranged, as he most wished, those of the Elven-race that lived still in Middle-earth waned and faded, and Men usurped the sunlight. Then the Quendi wandered in the lonely places of the great lands and the isles, and took to the moonlight and the starlight, and to the woods and caves, becoming as shadows and memories, save those who ever and anon set sail into the West and vanished from Middle-earth. But in the dawn of years Elves and Men were allies and held themselves akin, and there were some among Men that learned the wisdom of the Eldar, and became great and valiant among the captains of the Noldor. And in the glory and beauty of the Elves, and in their fate, full share had the offspring of elf and mortal, Eärendil, and Elwing, and Elrond their child."

And hey! Elrond is mentioned! How cool is that? A few chapters into the Silmarillion and Elrond is mentioned!

Not only does that paragraph show the essence of Tolkien's mythology, it also particularly looks forward to the end of LotR, where many of the Eldar are departing overseas, and where those elves who stay in Middle-earth are gradually fading into shadowy creatures of cave and dell.

A slightly different question this week to start with - what do you think about this cross-over between the Silmarillion and LotR? I love it - to me, it puts LotR into a different light - from an epic in its own right to a denouement of a war thats gone on through the ages, involving men and elves, the Valar and Maiar ... a crescendo of everything that's occurred through time.

And - on a bit of a tangent (sorry - I tried to tie these two in a bit better but failed miserably!)
"The Valar sat now behind their mountains at peace; and having given light to Middle-earth they left it for long untended, and the lordship of Morgoth was uncontested save by the valour of the Noldor.
...
Yet it is told that ere long they met Dark Elves in many places, and were befriended by them; and Men became the companions and disciples in their childhood of these ancient folk"

This quote really shows the difference between the childhood of the elves and that of men. The elves had the Valar around to protect them, they were even shepherded over to Aman to live in light and beauty.

Men had a dark Middle-earth, full of Morgoth and his monsters, with the Valar far away (except perhaps Ulmo). Their mentors were not the Ainur, they were the elves - including the Avari.

The differences are incredible. And actually I'm not sure I can come up with any specific questions to act as pointers. But what do you think the early years of Men were like - and how do you think the elves appeared to them?

RubySandybanks
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: "and Men usurped the sunlight"
on: February 16, 2005 11:24
As usual, I love reading your comments atalante, as I find they force me to open up my mind and question things that I may have otherwise overlooked. :love:

The cross-over between the Silmarillion and LotR

For the most part, I too, love it. I suppose it is in my character to want to know more and still more: like an appetite that constantly needs to be appeased. The Silmarillion certainly answers many of the questions that I had while reading Lord of the Rings. I will never read Lord of the Rings the same way again; it has already become far richer and complex than I had previously imagined.

And yet I feel an odd sense of sadness as if in reading The Silmarillion some of the magic of Lord of the Rings has been taken away. It’s as if finding too many answers will mean an end to Tolkien’s wonderful fantasy. And I don’t want it to end. Fortunately, I also know that Tolkien’s great ‘mythology’ can be a lifelong study.

Tolkien’s books have me spellbound. Quite literally, at times I feel that Tolkien has put a spell on his writing. I can read the same paragraph over and over and interpret it differently each time. I can put down one of his tales and pick it up a month later and find something I had missed before. I find his transitions from the Silmarillion to Lord of the Rings subtle and yet obvious at the same time. Amazing.

But what do you think the early years of Men were like - and how do you think the elves appeared to them?

I tend to think that the early years of Men were rather barbaric and definitely harsh. It seems from the text that Men had to first learn how to survive in their environment:
To Hildórien there came no Vala to guide Men, or to summon them to dwell in Valinor; and Men have feared the Valar, rather than loved them, and have not understood the purposes of the Powers, being at variance with them, and at strife with the world.
They were at odds with the Powers and the world. I imagine that the early years of Men were filled with chaos. Much of their time was no doubt spent in searching for food: hunting and gathering. And much time would be spent in protecting themselves from not only the elements but from Morgoth and his minions as well. Physiological and safety needs would take precedence over all else in the early days. Still though, these adversities would ensure that the race of Men would survive, flourish and become strong as time progressed.

When Men first looked upon the Elves they were undoubtedly filled with wonder. Initially they may have felt suspicious and fearful. Because of their wisdom and beauty, Men may, at first, have seen the Elves as unworldly and might even think they were ‘Gods.’ After all, the Elves are immortal (or nearly so): a trait often given to gods (and devils or demons as well). As understanding grows the Elves became allies and mentors of Men.

I especially like the idea that Men grow up independent of the Valar. This seems quite important somehow. They also have the ‘virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur…’ That independence of body and spirit, IMHO, will ensure their survival.

[Edited on 17/2/2005 by RubySandybanks]
GlandorSaradan
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Post RE: Masters in Mythology: "and Men usurped the sunlight"
on: February 17, 2005 12:21
Thanks for the quote atalante_star!

For the time being I'm too tired to write much to reply, and I don't have the book now (I wanna buy The Silmarillion!!...ahhh.. ), but anyway..

I suddenly think of something when reading RubySandyanks' reply:
I especially like the idea that Men grow up independent of the Valar. This seems quite important somehow. They also have the ‘virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur…’ That independence of body and spirit, IMHO, will ensure their survival.

adding what from atalante_star:
Men had a dark Middle-earth, full of Morgoth and his monsters, with the Valar far away (except perhaps Ulmo). Their mentors were not the Ainur, they were the elves - including the Avari.

Somehow when reading this part, I remembered there was a part from the book saying that the elves are (nearly) similar to the Ainur in their shape, save only the power of the Ainur.. I think that's one of the reasons why human feared the Ainur and ran away from them, but they let the (dark) elves come to their place and befriend them, and eventually the elves became their mentors: the elves are the most beautiful beings in Middle-earth, other than the Ainur, but their power was not as fearful as the Ainur, so it's a lot easier to approach the elves than the Ainur.
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