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atalante_star
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Post Lothlórien and the Moon
on: September 21, 2005 01:02
'And perhaps that was the way of it,' said Frodo. 'In that land, maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by. It was not, I think, until Silverlode bore us back to Anduin that we returned to the time that flows through mortal lands to the Great Sea. And I don't remember any moon, either new or old, in Caras Galadhon: only stars by night and sun by day.' (The Great River, FotR


Has anyone noticed this before? Or has an opinion on the matter?

Why would the moon not be seen? Do you think its just that Frodo didn't ever see when the moon was in the sky? Or was it something to do with the slowing down of time related to Nenya's powers?
Cloveress
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: September 21, 2005 02:50
Definately something mysterious about Lothlorien. It's Nenya of course. It prevents decay and something like that... But slowing down time? Maybe, though I did not think that Elves would have such power.

I noticed this part too, but I dismissed it with a thought that it was merely the power of Galadriel that made them forget their worries and rest awhile.

[Edited on 21/9/2005 by Cloveress]
atalante_star
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: September 21, 2005 04:09
I've always just dismissed it before, but for some reason it leapt out at me today. Why the Moon? The Sun and the Moon were created together, so to lose the Sun and not the Moon seems strange - I could understand it more, actually, if Lórien was simply lit by starlight.

Perhaps the loss of moonlight is simply a metaphor for the lack of Darkness in Lórien, held at bay by Galadriel and Nenya, though I don't really like that explanation!
ArFeiniel
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: September 21, 2005 10:23
Definately something mysterious about Lothlorien. It's Nenya of course. It prevents decay and something like that... But slowing down time? Maybe, though I did not think that Elves would have such power.


No, time doesn't slow down.

'...And I don't remember any moon, either new or old, in Caras Galadon: only stars by night and sun by day.'

Legolas stirred in his boat. 'Nay, atime does not tarry ever,' he said; 'but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow...'


I know, you can probably read it yourself. My understanding is that time seemed to slow down (or stand still) to the mortals that were in Lothlorien simply because they were in the land protected by Galadriel and Nenya. But time definitely didn't slow down. What did slow down was the decay of things - they decayed at a slower rate than outside of Lothlorien.

But why the moon couldn't be seen? I'm not sure. Perhaps - and this is just a thought, not very well-formed - it has something to do with what Gimli says to Eomer in ROTK about Eomer giving his love to the evening (Arwen), but Gimli giving his love to the morning (Galadriel)? It probably doesn't tie in at all, but it's a thought.
LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: September 21, 2005 04:47
Well, the moon would mark the passage of a month, which is how much time the company spent in Lorien. If Frodo could have seen the phases of the moon, he would not have been surprised at how swiftly the time passed, and we wouldn't have Tolkien's lovely little meditation on time here.

Aragorn seems to have noticed it, though:

"The old moon passed, and the new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried there. And yestereve a new moon came again."

On the other hand, he does say the moon is in "the world outside." Maybe the moon is hidden in Lorien because, of all celestial bodies, it most clearly marks the passing days. The sun is always the same, and the stars change positions only slowly. Maybe the elven magic of the place keeps people from noticing the moon--although I don't know how they'd see many stars when the moon was full.

Hmm. Very mysterious.
Cloveress
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: September 23, 2005 05:06
Galadriel as morning has always seemed a bit strange to me. But it does sorta make sense. She is the Lady of Light, after all. But Lothlorien is also really ancient. In the UT it says that the mallorn trees of Lorien grew from the seeds of the mallorn trees in Numenor and flourished under the power of Galadriel where they would not sprout anywhere else. That, combined with Nenya and Galadriel herself, is quite enough to make Lorien a place of "magic".
atalante_star
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: September 24, 2005 12:15
Well, the moon would mark the passage of a month, which is how much time the company spent in Lorien.

I think it has to be something to do with this, on further reflection. But why would they not see the moon at *all*. I'm still really puzzled!
Meltintalle
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: September 24, 2005 01:31
Was Frodo looking for the moon? I know there are days and days when I don't even notice it myself, and I'm not in Lothlorien!

*sigh* Such a prosaic answer...
elvishmusician
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: September 24, 2005 04:17
Hmmm... what was it that the members of the Fellowship needed at this point -rest and Galadriel would have known what they needed and also probably wanted them to rest too, while in Lothlorien. I don't know about you but if I was on a quest where speed and secrecy was of the essence I hardly think I would have been able to fully relax knowing how swiftly the days were passing. Maybe there was something Galadriel was able to do to give them that which they needed most. Also Aragorn seems to know that its not usual to see the moon in Lothlorien

"The old moon passed, and the new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried there. And yestereve a new moon came again."
Aragorn has been to Lothlorien numerous times and seems to know that the world outside continues while time seems to stand still. Maybe it has something to do with the Elves liking stars so much -Varda is their favourite Valar... and maybe Galadriel's power (Nenya as well). Though even with Galadriel's power I don't think she'd be able to control the moon, but could she get the Fellowhip relaxed enough that they don't look for the moon maybe - I dont know .

This is another really unformed thought but maybe it had to do with positioning of Lothlorien. I remember when I was younger reading 'Little House in the Big Woods' the main character Laura (also the author- its sort of a biography) talks about how amazing it was to see the sky -in the woods they only saw a small amount sky (where their father had cut down trees and made a clearing...). Forgive the diversion but Lothlorien was in a woods -with very tall trees as the mood passes over and actually moves throughout the night they may just have missed it or something -the stars are always going to be there -they move slowly but you can always see at least some of them. LOL -not a very well thought out response but anyway.
Niere
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: October 05, 2005 01:38
I can sort of provide an example of this. For my medieval literature class we're supposed to go outside at the same time every night to measure the angle of the moon as related to the horizon. I haven't seen the moon at all since the assignment was given. The moon could be rising late, after everyone has gone to sleep, or there are phases of the moon where you can't see it. Also, my prof said that when you can see the moon during the day (faintly, mind you) you can't see it at night. I don't know why, but that's what she said. That also might have something to do with it.

That said, I think it also has to do with Lothlorien as a place where time doesn't seem to pass.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: October 05, 2005 10:46
Oh! Thats really interesting Why were you measuring the moon for mediaeval lit? (Just being curious!)
Niere
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: October 06, 2005 09:24
I blame it all on Chaucer. We had to read his "Treatise on the Astralabe" to learn about medieval astronomy and astrology and my prof had us make our own primitive astralabe. Basically, she wants us to note the angle of the moon from the horizon and to note whether it's waxing, waning, full, etc. But none of us have seen the moon, so we're thinking either we're not seeing it late enough (as if 11:30 at night isn't late!) or it's out during the day. Haven't figured that out yet.

Also, it's been cloudy a lot lately. That doesn't help.
RiverWoman
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: October 07, 2005 07:58
OK, quick course. The sun, moon, and any visable planets all rise and set at the same place in the sky on any night. the exact spots on the horizon change as the year progresses, but basically rise in east and set in west. A lunar month lasts just over 28 days. Day one, the moon rises and sets the same times as the sun, and no moon is visable at all. A day or 2 later, the moon is rising after the sun, and setting after, so you can see a slender crescent in the western sky just after nightfall. A week later, the moon is rising at noon (all times local sun time) a half moon is visable in throughout the afternoon and it sets around midnight. In another week, the full moon rises as the sun sets. Another week and a half moon (now facing the opposite direction) rises at midnight, and can be seen faintly during the day until it sets around noon. It then shrinks into a smaller and smaller crescent, rising and setting about an hour later each day, until its gone and then it starts all over.

Once you become aware of all this, it gets way easier to "find" the moon because you know where in the sky and what time of day to look.

As to the question at hand, in heavy woods with leaves on the trees, the moon is often not be visable even when it is up, or takes some real searching to find, but I personally think this was more of a metaphor than any literal disappearance of the moon. Also, simply a plot device - JRRT wanted to get across the idea that time had passed by so quickly, but it would be unlikely for Sam to say "gee, the calendar function on my Palm pilot claims a month has gone by, but I could swear it was only a day or 2".
El-Tazrín
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: March 09, 2010 05:52
Well the only idea I had was that the Moon shows that the Elves will fade and that because of Nenya the Elves in Lothlorien don't fade and ting so maybe that was why the Moon wasn't there (It makes sense to me, I just can't explain myself ) But then I looked at the Silm and the Moon quote is that it 'cherishes their memory' so that's my idea blown out of the water...
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: July 01, 2011 03:19
RiverWoman's explanation is right. The place of moonrise not only varies through the year, but changes in range through time, with a full cycle taking 18+ years. We need to bear in mind too, that apart from the trees, there were mountains to the West.
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: August 14, 2011 12:23
'And perhaps that was the way of it,' said Frodo. 'In that land, maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by. It was not, I think, until Silverlode bore us back to Anduin that we returned to the time that flows through mortal lands to the Great Sea. And I don't remember any moon, either new or old, in Caras Galadhon: only stars by night and sun by day.' (The Great River, FotR


Has anyone noticed this before? Or has an opinion on the matter?

Why would the moon not be seen? Do you think its just that Frodo didn't ever see when the moon was in the sky? Or was it something to do with the slowing down of time related to Nenya's powers?


It makes me think that time has slowed down. Because there is also various references that state how time is slowed, one being that the fellowship lost count of the days when they were in Lorien.
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Elthir
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Post RE: Lothlórien and the Moon
on: August 15, 2011 02:32
It makes me think that time has slowed down. Because there is also various references that state how time is slowed, one being that the fellowship lost count of the days when they were in Lorien.


There are no certain references however, that time itself slowed. We have references to confused perceptions about time -- from some of the company anyway, notably (as mentioned in the thread already) it is Aragorn and Legolas who 'correct' the Hobbits, Legolas noting that time does not tarry and so on. The Tale of Years indicates no difference in actual time, but very interestingly, in the drafts for The Lord of the Rings, we see that Tolkien was playing with actual time differences! even to the point of noting this in his draft chronology.

But JRRT ultimately abandoned actual time variation for the (much easier) slowing of effects of time, which still makes Lorien 'timeless' in a sense, and confusing to mortals like the hobbits. Take away notice of the moon, and the confusion deepens. In a land where the effects of time are slowed, and the moon seems to have gone unnoticed, surely the time perceptions of 'mere mortals' (Aragorn is a special case to my mind but he had already been in Lorien in any case) might be thrown off.

More about the draft texts from The Lord of the Rings, from Hammond and Scull...

Tolkien now also introduced the Shire Reckoning, and reached the chronology of The Tale of Years: the Company cross the Silverlode on 16 January 1419, and leave on 16 February. Marquette MSS 4/2/17, headed 'New Time Table allowing 30 days sojourn in Lothlórien' with an added note 'which seems less long than it is (in traditional way)' includes an entry:

'The Coy. [Company] stays in Lórien for many days. They cannot count the time, for they do not age in that time, but outside in fact 30 days goes by.' In Scheme a similar note says:' They cannot count the time, for they themselves do not age or only very slowly. Outside in fact about 30 days passes.'
This was one of the effects of the Elven ring worn by Galadriel. Bilbo had commented on a similar inability to reckon time in Rivendell, where Elrond also wore an Elven ring.'

Hammond and Scull, The Lord of the Rings, A Reader's Companion


This was Tolkien's ultimate decision, abandoning actual time difference for: 'They cannot count the time (...) Outside in fact about 30 days passes.'

Compare Legolas' statement to Tolkien's later description of Aman in his essay published in Morgoth's Ring: in Aman time passes at the same rate as in Middle-earth, but change and growth in Aman is not the same as in Middle-earth.
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