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Figwit
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Post 2.I. A Description of the Island of Númenor
on: December 05, 2005 07:40
Okidoki folks. This has to be the most boring chapter in any book I ever read, except maybe that chapter on symbolic logic in my logic course book, but still - I found some stuff to talk about... and so can you!

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Figwit
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Post RE: 2.I. A Description of the Island of Númenor
on: December 05, 2005 07:45
1. There's a small contradiction in the text: in the beginning Tolkien writes that after the downfall people only remember Ar-Pharazôn and his armada, but then later on he talks about some kind of tree and how it was remembered in song...

2. Why is the island shaped like a star?

3. I found it really, really remarkable that Tolkien describes the summit of the Meneltarma as completely unadorned, no temple, no menhirs, no nothing.

4. How come the only birds on the Meneltarma are those three eagles? That's weird...
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: 2.I. A Description of the Island of Númenor
on: December 05, 2005 01:07
4--- Let's put it this way- If you were a bird and you saw three eagles hanging around the top of a mountain, would you go there and risk becoming eagle dinner?
It is odd that it is only 3 eagles as Tolkien was generaly more interested in larger groups like 7 or 9.

_______________
I actually liked this chapter. It reads a bit like a geography text and fills in a lot of needed info about Númenor. From tolkien's descriptions I can form a mental picture of the Island, from the wondrous scented woods of Nisimaldar, through the tombs of Noirinan, to the magnificemt cliffs that surrounded much of the island
Image
(This is actually the Cliffs of Moher but it immdeditely brings the cliffs of Númenor to mind, right down to the silly idea of mounting a tower on top of the cliff to give you a bit more height)



[Edited on 6/12/2005 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Figwit
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Post RE: 2.I. A Description of the Island of Númenor
on: December 06, 2005 10:40
That's a nice pic Pb, and yes - the tower seems very Númenorean .
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 2.I. A Description of the Island of Númenor
on: December 14, 2005 09:15
1. There's a small contradiction in the text: in the beginning Tolkien writes that after the downfall people only remember Ar-Pharazôn and his armada, but then later on he talks about some kind of tree and how it was remembered in song...


I understand it so that, the doomed endeavour of Ar-Pharazôn was the only historical event that was remembered; but sure, the exiles remembered the landscapes of their former homes. (And, BTW, browsing through the chapter I didn't spot any reference to a tree being remembered in songs or something like that; but, the malinornë and the laurinquë definitely were so special that they could hardly be easily forgotten, and a description of them sure would pass to later generations.)

3. I found it really, really remarkable that Tolkien describes the summit of the Meneltarma as completely unadorned, no temple, no menhirs, no nothing.


Maybe Tolkien thought like a Finnish artist once made his alter ego in a cartoon say: "Why do people always talk and talk about God? Why don't they just shut up and listen to God's beautiful nature speak to them?"
Ilandir
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Post RE: 2.I. A Description of the Island of Númenor
on: May 23, 2006 01:03
1. There's a small contradiction in the text: in the beginning Tolkien writes that after the downfall people only remember Ar-Pharazôn and his armada, but then later on he talks about some kind of tree and how it was remembered in song...

But Tolkien doesn't name the word 'ONLY', he says there are few tales that remember events and happenings before Ar-Pharazôn and the Downfall.


2. Why is the island shaped like a star?

It might be a symbolisim from Iluvatar to show, in a geographical way, that Numenor was in fact the Land of Gift given to the Men of Middle Earth.

3. I found it really, really remarkable that Tolkien describes the summit of the Meneltarma as completely unadorned, no temple, no menhirs, no nothing.

The Numenoreans might have thought that Eru didn't want any of these ceremony objects to be built. It was simply enough just to keep in the peoples' minds the fact of thanking him.


4. How come the only birds on the Meneltarma are those three eagles? That's weird...

The Three eagles were sent from Aman to protect the Meneltarma. No other birds were to be found, might have been their recognition of peace in that place.

Thanks,
Ilandir


[Edited on 23/5/2006 by Ilandir]
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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: 2.I. A Description of the Island of Númenor
on: May 24, 2006 12:48
Would the Numenorians need to build a temple on Meneltarma? The First Numenorians knew that their God cared for them; He made the entire Island they lived on, specifically for their use. They aslo knew that he saw them and what they did. They had no doubt of his power, having witnessed the destruction of Beleriand. They also had no doubt about the presence of evil, having battled the forces of evil , and creatures designed by the Evil One.
It seemed not to be in the nature of the peoples of Middle-earth not to build temples to' house' their gods or even to feel the need to have priests or ministers for their faith. Why would they , when the presence of their God and his messengers was so clear for them.
Unfortuneately, the memories of the Numenorians faded with time and they lost faith, caring more for what they saw and what they felt they lacked , then for historic events.

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As to the star shape of Numenor; What better shape for the home of a seafaring people, as the shape maximized coastline and the usefulness of ships , even for travel around Numenor? On a star shaped island far more people would live near the coast then on a more rounded island.
Ilandir
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Post RE: 2.I. A Description of the Island of Númenor
on: May 25, 2006 12:58
As to the star shape of Numenor; What better shape for the home of a seafaring people, as the shape maximized coastline and the usefulness of ships , even for travel around Numenor? On a star shaped island far more people would live near the coast then on a more rounded island.


Does it really make a difference? I mean it might be true that the shape might have increased the ships' use for trade, etc, but wouldn't the result be still the same, even though it is rounded or it have more that 5 promontories?

Thanks,
Ilandir

[Edited on 25/5/2006 by Ilandir]
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ainithil
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Post RE: 2.I. A Description of the Island of Númenor
on: May 30, 2006 08:39
As to the star shape of Numenor; What better shape for the home of a seafaring people, as the shape maximized coastline and the usefulness of ships , even for travel around Numenor? On a star shaped island far more people would live near the coast then on a more rounded island.


this is indeed right, I would never have thought of something like this
I think that the star shape is also a connection to the elves. cause they admired Varda who brought the stars in a special way. and since Elros gave up immortality and gave up being an elf it seems like something that should remember the Numenoreans of their ancestors.
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