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ajax211
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Post The Mystery of Aelfwine and Pengolodh
on: January 12, 2006 05:43
Sorry to clog up the forum with an avalanche of new threads, but i fell i must get others' opinions on this. I won't go into the details, but if you've read HOME volume 1, Book of Lost tales, it speaks of a 10th century English mariner called Aelfwine (Pronounced alwin, i think) who managed to sail into the BR with his companions, and met a sage called Pengolodh. From him Aelfwine learnt much of the lore of the first four Ages, and eventually returned with written records of what he learnt. That, i may be wrong, is where the Professor says he got his material. How is this possible? How did he manage to return, himself being a mortal, from the immortal lands?

for more information regarding ths mystrey check this out

http://www.tolkienonline.de/etep/C/chroniclers.html#aelfwine
Elioclya
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Post RE: The Mystery of Aelfwine and Pengolodh
on: January 12, 2006 11:33
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, anybody... I haven't yet battled my way through all of HoME! But I think the main point to keep in mind with Lost Tales is that they're older drafts, which means that some of the plot structures have been completely abandoned. In Christopher Tolkien's commentary on The Cottage of Lost Play in LT1 he discusses the fact that "the Elvish isle to which Eriol [Aelfwine] came was England", which might explain a lot. But regardless, I think the point of Aelfwine/Eriol as a character, in all his conceptions, is to tie Tolkien's mythology into English history, which was, I believe his aim - to make up a true mythology for the country he loved. For Tolkien it's not enough just to say, "This is the true history/mythology of England", he has to link it to the accepted historical facts to make it seem more real. I love the idea of Kortirion being Warwick, mythologically viable or not, since my hometown is very close to there (in fact I went to the castle last Saturday) - it makes me feel very close to the stories!
atalante_star
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Post RE: The Mystery of Aelfwine and Pengolodh
on: January 13, 2006 02:12
Before I forget, there is a very interesting article on Ælfwine here: http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/aelfwine.htm

Anyway, Ælfwine (also aka Eriol) and Pengolodh ... Tolkien came up with that story early in his mthology. He wanted to create a mythology for England, and so he created the story of Ælfwine, a man from ancient England who sailed to Tol Eressea and was told / shown the books of The Silmarillion by either multiple elves or just Pengolodh. Ælfwine then managed to get back to England, where he translated the stories into Old English. Tolkien then translated the stories into modern English, thus making them more "myth" than "story".

Whether the idea of Ælfwine and Pengolodh was ever truly dropped, we don't really know. They were still in place by the time of "The Lost Road" (HoME V), and both are mentioned in writings that postdate LotR. I would tentatively suggest, however, that maybe the idea became less favoured during the creation of the published Silmarillion - though that could maybe have been just through necessity of time constraints and simplicity.

Christopher Tolkien said somewhere (can't remember where!) that he thought that the Silmarillion was supposed to be a translation from Bilbo's Red Book, but nothing to that effect was actually said by Tolkien himself. He seems to have increasingly considered the Sil as a jumbled tradition of mythology made by Man (the Silmarillion texts being Mannish legends derived from Numenorean traditions in turn derived from Elvish lore, or something equally complicated). However, this *does* contradict the information we have from LotR where Bilbo translated his works from Elvish texts in Elrond's Library in Rivendell.

*studies post* I think that's the basics ...
ajax211
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Post RE: The Mystery of Aelfwine and Pengolodh
on: January 13, 2006 07:22
Atalante_star: The idea of Aelfwine and Pengolodh was never abandoned. Only yesterday, i happened to glance at Peoples of Middle Earth (Vol XII of HOME).

It contains a chapter called Dangweth Pengolodh, in which he tells Aelfwine exactly how the variations in the Eldarin languages (Sindarin, Quenya and their dialects) came about. In the said chapter, Pengolodh is described, amazingly, as "the wise of Gondolin". The said chapter is in the last section of the book called Last Writings, so we can assume that Tolkien not only never abandoned the idea, he obviously liked it.

The Red Book of Westmarch did indeed have a section on books of lore translated by Bilbo in Imladris(i always say that lol), but that did not evolve into the Silmarillion. Only The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings came from the RBoW.

The Silmarillion was derived from the collected instructions of Pengolodh, not, as commonly supposed from the RBOW
atalante_star
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Post RE: The Mystery of Aelfwine and Pengolodh
on: January 13, 2006 12:02
Pengolodh is described, amazingly, as "the wise of Gondolin".

Why is this amazing? As well as Valinor, Pengolodh has a deep connection with Gondolin.
The Silmarillion was derived from the collected instructions of Pengolodh, not, as commonly supposed from the RBOW

Not the RBOW, but the extra volumes of Translations from the Elvish ...

[Edited on 13/1/2006 by atalante_star]
Drauglin
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Post RE: The Mystery of Aelfwine and Pengolodh
on: January 13, 2006 12:20
I'm pretty sure that the idea of Aelfwine was abandoned with the earlier versions of the Sil.... the idea was to have those stroies segue into modern day (or at least European history).

There's maps on this site, I think, of Arda with ME looking like England and the Sutherlands looking very much like Africa.

It may have never been wholly abandoned, but with the QS&RBOW the way they are, it's a little harder to place the timing of Aelfwine's voyage and all.

So if we were going to try to put these together, as if in a movie script, how would we determine if the Golden Book or Bilbo & Elrond's lore even fit in with the Red Book?

Red Book and esp. the Hobbit are written with an older version of the lore, where Valinor is called Faery and all. Is this just Mwn's or Hobbit's version of the lore, whereas High-Elves know the true history?

BTAW Ajax, what's your handle for? Just curious.....
ajax211
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Post RE: The Mystery of Aelfwine and Pengolodh
on: January 14, 2006 12:36
Heh heh, sorry atalante, Just expressing surprise. I, personally wasn't aware of the fact, and i didnt expect him to be connected with Gondolin, because i had never heard of him till a couple of weeks back and i'm firmly convinced that i read somewhere that the Sil was derived from the RBOW.

Dragulin, i think its quite clear that Aelfwine sailed in the 10th century AD.
anyway there's another question which about which i ave doubts i'd like you guys to answer: Can you date the events of LOtR according to the Gegrovian (Christian) calendar?
atalante_star
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Post RE: The Mystery of Aelfwine and Pengolodh
on: January 14, 2006 12:07
Heh heh, sorry atalante, Just expressing surprise. I, personally wasn't aware of the fact, and i didnt expect him to be connected with Gondolin, because i had never heard of him till a couple of weeks back and i'm firmly convinced that i read somewhere that the Sil was derived from the RBOW.

For some reason he is ...! Not *quite* sure how Tolkien managed that one!

Oh, ok. Yes I am (after looking it up!). He was born in Nevrast, and later went to live in Gondolin. Much later, in the early third age (maybe) he sailed in the West.
ajax211
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Post RE: The Mystery of Aelfwine and Pengolodh
on: January 14, 2006 05:56
I'll now return to my original question. If Aelfwine did indeed manage to get into Eressea, why was he allowed to return? Isn't that a bit unfair to Earendil?
Drauglin
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Post RE: The Mystery of Aelfwine and Pengolodh
on: January 17, 2006 11:54
I think it's safe to say that him returning was a mistake, but a well-forseen one. Remember that we're talking about Elves of Tol Eressa, not Valar. They decided to let him have that, ummm limpe drink but predicted he would lust for his home before the end. He ends up going back, but he went back to the Lonely Island before he died. I think Tolkien wanted him to see the last war of Melkor before he died, but it ended up being meaningless as the Evil men gain control of ME.

I guess what I wanted to say is that Elves made the decision, not Gods, and I say it was a bad decision.
atalante_star
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Post RE: The Mystery of Aelfwine and Pengolodh
on: January 25, 2006 02:06
I've spent *ages* over the last week trying to find out stuff about this!!

The best I can do is the following:
"Eall nu gé habbaþ þe ic hider ongean
gesendede wæs secgan Seaxna folce
and gewritenra worda wisra bocfela,
ymb þæm an eorþe wæs, ealdum wígum,
rícum rinca, recedum ælfa."

"You now have all that I was sent back
hither to say to the Saxon folk
and wise written words [enough for] many books
about what was on earth, old wars,
men's realms, elves' buildings."

I *think* that's from "Sauron Defeated", but my copy is packed up with most of my other HoME books, so I won't be able to check it for a few days!
Elthir
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Post RE: The Mystery of Aelfwine and Pengolodh
on: November 09, 2009 05:42
ajax211 wrote: The idea of Aelfwine and Pengolodh was never abandoned. Only yesterday, i happened to glance at Peoples of Middle Earth (Vol XII of HOME).

It contains a chapter called Dangweth Pengolodh (...) The said chapter is in the last section of the book called Last Writings, so we can assume that Tolkien not only never abandoned the idea, he obviously liked it.'


This text is rather in Part III (not part II Late Writings, in which is found XIII Last Writings), and appears to date around 1958.

Atalante_star wrote: He seems to have increasingly considered the Sil as a jumbled tradition of mythology made by Man (the Silmarillion texts being Mannish legends derived from Numenorean traditions in turn derived from Elvish lore, or something equally complicated). However, this *does* contradict the information we have from LotR where Bilbo translated his works from Elvish texts in Elrond's Library in Rivendell.


I don't think this is necessarily so. I'm not sure Tolkien ever published that the works used by Bilbo were strictly Elvish in authorship and point of view. I think 'Translations from the Elvish' can mean translations of lore written in an Elvish tongue.

Oh, ok. Yes I am (after looking it up!). He [Pengolodh] was born in Nevrast, and later went to live in Gondolin. Much later, in the early third age (maybe) he sailed in the West.


According to Quendi And Eldar (1959-60) Pengolodh is said to have remained in Middle-earth until far on into the Second Age, but when the shadow of Sauron fell upon Eriador he left Middle-earth and sailed to Eressea.

Pengolodh's history is a bit different according to a later work however -- he is an Exile rather, according to Author's note 3 to Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi, and as the Vinyar Tengwar editors also note, he would then have no Sindarin blood (as earlier).
El-Tazrín
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Post RE: The Mystery of Aelfwine and Pengolodh
on: November 26, 2009 07:04
By Ajax: Can you date the events of LOtR according to the Gegrovian (Christian) calendar?


Well Atalantë sank about 9000 BC, read that in a book on the Orion Prophecy, that was the end of the sencond age-ish. LOTR happens bout 3000 years into TA (3rd Age) so about 6000 BC. Hope I've helped = )

[Edited on 26/11/2009 by El-Tazrín]
cirdaneth
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on: September 29, 2015 05:02
* bump
Elthir
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on: October 01, 2015 01:49
It appears that Elfwine dropped out (of texts) after the 1950s, and in my opinion, for the revised edition of The Lord of the Rings (1965) Tolkien would "strongly suggest" that Quenta Silmarilion was part of Bilbo's translations from the Elvish.

And I said earlier (in response to someone here):

I don't think this is necessarily so. I'm not sure Tolkien ever published that the works used by Bilbo were strictly Elvish in authorship and point of view. I think 'Translations from the Elvish' can mean translations of lore written in an Elvish tongue.


And I had forgotten to add that in 1962 Tolkien had published that the lore of Rivendell included Numenorean lore (both Elvish and Numenorean), in his remarks to the poems in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

This precedes even the revised edition, when Tolkien added his Note On The Shire Records, which included that Bilbo's Translations From The Elvish were "almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days". And JRRT had added in Appendix A (again revised edition) that Bilbo's chief interest lay in the legends of the First Age.

For the sleep aid version, pass beyond the line of doom.


the line of doom -------------

First a reference from Hammond and Scull, from their Reader's Guide, companion to their volume titled Chronology:

"... that one of these was to be the Quenta Silmarillion. In support of this idea is a report by Dick Plotz that when he visited Tolkien on 1 November, 1966,

"he, half-heartedly I suppose, was thinking up schemes for rendering the Silmarillion publishable. So far, I think what he is doing is relating it to Bilbo's stay in Rivendell, which is what he said to me.

Now there is a hint of this somewhere in The Lord of the Rings.... But apparently when Bilbo went to Rivendell he was surrounded by Elves and all Elven records for seventeen years. Here was living history and he attempted to write it down, and this is what became the Silmarillion ["An Edited Transcript of Remarks at the December 1966 TSA [Tolkien Society of America] Meeting"; Niekas 19 (Spring 1967), p. 40.

Hammond and Scull, Reader's Guide


I would add that Rivendell contained Numenorean lore too. In The Adventures of Tom Bombadil we find the description, for example:

"These two pieces, therefore, are only re-handlings of Southern matter, though this may have reached Bilbo by way of Rivendell. No. 14 also depends upon the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Numenorean, concerning the heroic days at the end of the First Age; it seems to contain echoes of the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim the Dwarf."
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