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Ilandir
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Post Aragorn's Death
on: May 05, 2006 03:51
Hi Everyone,

I'm not sure if this has been asked before, but I was reading the LOTR, Appendix A. It was the passage of 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' and here follows a quote that struck me:-

… I am the last of the Nùmenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days; and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle Earth, but also the grace to go at my will, and give back the gift. Now, therefore, I will sleep…


Thus this mean that Aragorn had the 'gift' of choosing when he would pass away? I thought of this since he says 'but also the grace to go at my will' and '... therefore, I will sleep'.

I'm not certain if what I said is actually true or correct, but I would like some feedback on what everyone thinks and provide me with some help.

Thank you,
Ilandir
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Drauglin
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 05, 2006 04:02
Hmmm there's a lot of things that could be speculated about this....
In the Sil, the death of Beor the Old was described in a very similar way. I presume this - that this was part of the gift of Eru to all men in the beginning, but after the end of the first age it was only an accessable way of going to the Elf-friends that became Numenorians. This could be because they were the only men in Arda that were not corrrupted (or dilluted) by Melkor at the time. It only happens when they know their time is near.

My question is, is this possible for people today to actually do? Or is this strictly a fantastical concept?
atalante_star
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 05, 2006 04:50
The gift is the gift of death, that Iluvatar gave to men. e.g. from the Sil:
"For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which was the gift of Ilúvatar to Men."

"Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy."

In early years, men accepted this gift, but in Númenor, the idea became corrupted, and men tried to outstay their natural lives and gain immortality like the Elves. But this really didn't work very well:
"But for all this Death did not depart from the land, rather it came sooner and more often, and in many dreadful guises. For whereas aforetime men had grown slowly old, and had lain them down in the end to sleep, when they were weary at last of the world, now madness and sickness assailed them; and yet they were afraid to die and go out into the dark and the realm of the lord they had taken"

So Aragorn's acceptance of the gift is a return to times of old, and at the same time, the start of a new era where old principles and loves came back into play.
Ilandir
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 05, 2006 05:22
Thanks for the information Drauglin and atalante_star I knew about the Doom of Men by Iluvatar although the phrase 'therefore, I will sleep' is still lingering in my mind.

It was as if Aragorn took a decision of not continue living. Although he was old he still could keep on living, how was this possible then?

Thanks,
Ilandir
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Drauglin
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 05, 2006 05:53
I guess it is one of those strictly fantasy things... that's how the Numenorian kings did death too (at first). Aragorn knew he was getting very old, and if he continued living he would become feeble and weak minded. A 'dotard' i think is the term Tolkien uses the most. So since his son was ready to be king, he knew his time was almost up so he chose to " give up the ghost" instead of lingering past his prime.
Ilandir
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 05, 2006 06:09
I see, thanks Drauglin.

Then...
that's how the Numenorian kings did death too (at first)


So ok that was before they started thinking of gaining immortality. Then how long did the average Numenorian King live, before this corruption? 350-400 years?

And those who wanted immortality? Could they have extended it farther than that? I guess whether corruption or not, there still was a definite average age (varying at least of about 50 years).

Thanks,
Ilandir

[Edited on 5/5/2006 by Ilandir]
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Drauglin
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 05, 2006 08:35
So ok that was before they started thinking of gaining immortality. Then how long did the average Numenorian King live, before this corruption? 350-400 years?


Elros, the first Numenorian king, lived about 500 years, and ruled for almost 400. I believe that 400 years was the longest that any of the other king lived.

And those who wanted immortality? Could they have extended it farther than that? I guess whether corruption or not, there still was a definite average age (varying at least of about 50 years).


Their desire for immortality had the opposite effect. It began with their quiet dissention towards the Valar, but was expidited after Sauron came to inhabit and control the land. Luckily I've got a good passage from the Akallabeth right here in front of me- (this is after worship of Melko and human sacrifice came into the picture) -

But for all this Death did not depart from the land, but came more often, and in many dreadful guises. For whereas aforetime men had grown slowly old, and had laid them down in the end to sleep, when they wore weary at last of the world, now madness and sicknedd assailed them, and yet they were afraid to die and go out into the dark ....

If you wanted to do a little study Illandie, I'd get the Akallabeth (from the Silmarillion) and the Annals of the Kings of Numenor from the Unfinished Tales and read them both. I did this myself and it helped me understand not only the waning of their years but the Numenorian "attitude" much better.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 05, 2006 09:10
Then how long did the average Numenorian King live, before this corruption? 350-400 years?


According to Tolkien himself, the average lifespan of the Númenórean royalty was 350 years (5x70), and of the common people, 210 years (3x70). (From The Tale of Years of the Second Age in HoME 12)
Ilandir
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 06, 2006 01:54
Thanks Drauglin and Morwinyoniel

Also Drauglin, when u said ...
If you wanted to do a little study Illandie, I'd get the Akallabeth (from the Silmarillion) and the Annals of the Kings of Numenor from the Unfinished Tales and read them both


In fact I had just finished reading the Annals of the Kings of Numenor and before that I read the Akallabeth. I still have to read the 'Line of Elros' from the Unfinished Tales though ...

Oh and I just found a sentece from the website of 'The Encylopedia of Arda' and said this small phrase regards Aragorn:-

and then gave up his life willingly, as his mighty ancestors had done thousands of years before


So I guess this strongly suggests that Aragorn had some kind of power like this. Also, I read somewhere, in Appendix A of LoTR, I think, that he was a 'true' descendant and had some proper right blood of the Kings of Numenor.

Well thanks alot for your help and keep on posting so we can collect as much information as possible regards this aspect!

Thanks,
Ilandir
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Strider_is_the_cats_MEOW
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 07, 2006 06:43
It was as if Aragorn took a decision of not continue living


Here's a quote from Appendix A that might clear it up a bit . . .
Take council from yourself, beloved, and ask whether you would indeed have me wait until I wither and fall from my high seat unmanned and witless.


He didn't want to continue living if he had to live so restricted. I guess, as a person who always was extremely physically able, that would be worse than death.
Ilandir
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 07, 2006 08:15
I guess, as a person who always was extremely physically able, that would be worse than death.


You are perfectly right Strider_is_the_cats_MEOW Also, thanks for posting the quote from the Appendix A, I forgot all about that phrase!

Thanks,
Ilandir



[Edited on 7/5/2006 by Ilandir]
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Gilwen_the_Sorceress
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 08, 2006 08:55
Numenoreans Kings has the gift of deciding their own death.

To my eyes, Aragorn decided to die. He was actually tired, quite tired.
Ilandir
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 11, 2006 12:29
Thanks for the reply Gilwen_the_Sorceress . Also, it is said that he had some pure Numenorean blood. How is this possible after over 30 generations. And why Aragorn and not his father ,etc ,etc

Was is some plan devised by Iluvatar for Aragorn to inherit this blood to conduct the Free Peoples of Middle Earth to victory?

Thanks,
Ilandir
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RiverWoman
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 11, 2006 05:05
I think in some way the Numenoreans knew when it was TIME to die and simply let go of life, and currupted humans refused to accept this natural order. Sort of like when someone is really tired and FIGHTS against falling asleep, especially small children who will deny they are even tired when they are completely worn out.

I believe it is possible for humans to let go and stop fighting death when the time comes, I think many people today would die easier if doctors didn't insist on fighting it to the end by every means at their disposal. I was once dangerously sick with pneumonia and was aware of fighting very hard (I don't fear death, but I was 8 months pregnant and had 2 young children waiting for me at home, it was not time to go)
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 11, 2006 07:18
Also, it is said that he had some pure Numenorean blood. How is this possible after over 30 generations. And why Aragorn and not his father ,etc ,etc

Was is some plan devised by Iluvatar for Aragorn to inherit this blood to conduct the Free Peoples of Middle Earth to victory?


The Dúnedain of the North, to whom Aragorn was the chieftain, were all of as pure Númenórean descent as could be. Although their numbers were diminished from the days of the early Third Age, they still found spouses among their own people, and that kept the bloodline from mingling with "lesser" ones. So, Aragorn's father was quite as "pureblood" as Aragorn himself; he just never had a chance to lay down his life peacefully, because he got killed by orcs at the premature age of 60.

Aragorn just was the one there at the right time. (And, maybe, Eru's designs had something to do with it. )
Ilandir
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: May 13, 2006 09:13
A few comments ...

I think in some way the Numenoreans knew when it was TIME to die and simply let go of life, and currupted humans refused to accept this natural order.


Thanks RiverWoman for your statement . I appreciate your reply and regards:-

I was once dangerously sick with pneumonia and was aware of fighting very hard (I don't fear death, but I was 8 months pregnant and had 2 young children waiting for me at home, it was not time to go)


I'm really sorry about this, it must have been a terrible experience.

Morwinyoniel, regards:-

The Dúnedain of the North, to whom Aragorn was the chieftain, were all of as pure Númenórean descent as could be. Although their numbers were diminished from the days of the early Third Age, they still found spouses among their own people, and that kept the bloodline from mingling with "lesser" ones. So, Aragorn's father was quite as "pureblood" as Aragorn himself; he just never had a chance to lay down his life peacefully, because he got killed by orcs at the premature age of 60.

Aragorn just was the one there at the right time. (And, maybe, Eru's designs had something to do with it. )


Thanks for your comments aswell!

If anyone wants to post a comment, please feel free to do so. It is an interesting thing to discuss such matters together, to help exlpore and understand better what J.R.R. Tolkien has written.

Thanks,
Ilandir
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cirdaneth
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: September 17, 2011 06:52
*bump
Rulea
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: October 04, 2011 10:03
There's a part I don't really understand. Why would Aragorn want to die before his time? I know he asked Arwen if she would rather have him "fall of his high seat unmanned and witless" (sorry if i got that wrong) but I still don't get that concept.

[Edited on 4/10/2011 by Rulea]
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Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: October 05, 2011 12:21
He simply felt that he had lived long enough, and if he'd cling to life any longer, he'd become a demented, helpless being. Having seen that happen to a few old people I've known, I don't think it would be a very dignified end for a great king... So, he wanted to go before that would happen, and was ready to go.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: October 07, 2011 01:06
I don't think Aragorn died before his time, Rulea. His concept of 'his time' was likely very different from the way we view such things, anyway. There are also a number of possibilities as to the actual 'manner' of his death. We know that he went to the House of the Kings in Silent Street and lay daown, and that he was apparently awake and lucid up to the point where he fell asleep. So did he ...

a) Contract an infection and decline treatment, though there is no mention of suffering. He is very calm.
b) Forsake his weakening physical body by will, as it is said many of the Christian saints did.
c) Drink a 'cup of parting' containing a gentle poison, bearing in mind that Aragorn's faith in death being a gift, and a transition to something greater, could embrace a specifically Numenorean view and not be considered suicide or sinful ... but only when useful life is over.
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: October 07, 2011 09:22
I think b. Elves could cast off their physical form and go to Mandos if they felt like it. I assume this from one example, Míriel, but I'm sure there are others. The kings of Númenor had Elvish blood so perhaps they had this ability. My gran took off her wedding ring one day saying 'I won't be needing that.' It took her three weeks to finally pop off but she had clearly decided. I'm sure many people have been able to just stop. What a blessing.
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Rulea
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Post RE: Aragorn's Death
on: October 11, 2011 11:37
I don't think Aragorn died before his time, Rulea. His concept of 'his time' was likely very different from the way we view such things, anyway. There are also a number of possibilities as to the actual 'manner' of his death. We know that he went to the House of the Kings in Silent Street and lay daown, and that he was apparently awake and lucid up to the point where he fell asleep. So did he ...

a) Contract an infection and decline treatment, though there is no mention of suffering. He is very calm.
b) Forsake his weakening physical body by will, as it is said many of the Christian saints did.
c) Drink a 'cup of parting' containing a gentle poison, bearing in mind that Aragorn's faith in death being a gift, and a transition to something greater, could embrace a specifically Numenorean view and not be considered suicide or sinful ... but only when useful life is over.



You bring up a very good arguement! I always thought it was c. He just decided it was time for him to go and he willingly laid down his life.
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