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Elendelyne
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Post The Elessar Stone
on: December 25, 2006 09:29
In Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle Earth, there is a short story on the Elessar Stone, which throughout the years came to Aragorn and Arwen. Why is nothing ever said about this stone? and which of Aragorn's children did it go to, do you think? Eldarion or one of their daughters? It's a beautiful story, and one that I'd love to elaborate/elaboration on.
RiverWoman
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Post RE: The Elessar Stone
on: December 26, 2006 03:42
That stone is set in the brooch that Galadrial gives to Aragorn in Lorien. I would guess it would become tradition for the ruling king, or perhaps his designated heir, to wear it.
Elendelyne
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Post RE: The Elessar Stone
on: December 27, 2006 08:30
Really! That I didn't know. Thank you!
Rulea
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Post RE: The Elessar Stone
on: December 27, 2006 04:50
The brooch would have to have gone to Eldarion because didn't he say it would be an heirloom of his house?
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Elendelyne
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Post RE: The Elessar Stone
on: December 28, 2006 10:05
I reread the Lothlorien chapter and finally realized that Galadriel did give the stone to Aragorn there. Anyways, why does Eldarion have to get it? He's already getting the crown and Anduril. I think I'm going to write a story about the Elessar stone going to one of Aragorn's daughters. Thanks for your help.
Rulea
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Post RE: The Elessar Stone
on: December 31, 2006 10:44
No prob...good luck with your story. I still think the stone gose to Eldarion because he was next in line for the throne.
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Elendelyne
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Post RE: The Elessar Stone
on: January 01, 2007 09:28
You're probably right, but, truthfully, I want more elaboration on Aragorn's daughters. A story plot of mine is to talk about his daughters and their different personality traits. For example, one would be like Strider, liking to go traveling and caring for herself. She'll go traveling and find the entwives, though I'm not sure if they'll be dead or not. Then another daughter would be like Aragorn the healer; I'll have the Elessar brooch go to her. Perhaps she'll go traveling with her sister. Eldarion would, of course, be the kingly one, but my story will be mostly on the King's daughters. Anyways, if I write the story, I'll just find out how the daughters turn out as they write themselves out.
Rulea
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Post RE: The Elessar Stone
on: January 01, 2007 02:38
I like how the personaltity traits in Aragorn's daughters
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MinasTirithMS
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Post RE: The Elessar Stone
on: January 20, 2007 04:21
Cool story about Aragorn's daughters.

I'd like to hear the story of the elf who made the Elessar Stone. I love how Tolkien gives a rich depth of history to his characters...especially Aragorn.:heart:

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Lieutenant_Gothmog
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Post RE: The Elessar Stone
on: January 20, 2007 11:04
I think the stone belonged to Eärendil, remember Bilbo's song about him in Many Meetings? "Actually it has all mine except that Dúnadan insisted on putting in a green stone."
Elthir
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Post RE: The Elessar Stone
on: November 07, 2009 11:56
I think the stone belonged to Eärendil...


That's right, Earendil had it according to the account in Unfinished Tales, which basically sets out two internal stories concerning the stone, the very simplified versions being:

One Elessar: Enerdhil makes the Jewel, Earendil ultimately wears it, and Gandalf brings it back to Middle-earth, giving it to Galadriel.

Two Elessars: Enerdhil makes the first one. Celebrimbor makes the second and Galadriel receives the Elessar before she receives Nenya, and gives it to Celebrian.

It's more complicated than that (especially concerning Celebrimbor), but this is from the longer text, as there's a three sentence description that follows it -- the former described as a 'very rough manuscript' and in the first stage of composition.
Elthir
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Post RE: The Elessar Stone
on: May 06, 2010 05:43
By the way, concerning The Elessar...

In version A: why would Galadriel speak to Gandalf as she does, considering she should already have Nenya at this point in time, and can use it (as this is well after Sauron's loss of the One).

And version B states: 'Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to the Forest. But afterwards when Nenya, chief of the Three, was sent to her, she needed it (as she thought) no more, and gave it to Celebrian her daughter...' Christopher Tolkien remarks that 'the coming of the Shadow to the Forest' undoubtedly refers to the arising of Sauron in Dol Guldur. OK, but this is in the Third Age; how does Galadriel receive Nenya after this?

Or if that's not the meaning, why then would Galadriel give up the jewel when she received Nenya in the Second Age? when she can't use her ring as Sauron still has the One.

Hmm.
Hanasian
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on: September 16, 2016 08:56
I believe the Elessar stone has a vague history. It was made in Gondolin and had some power infused in it. Eärendil the Mariner came to possess it and legend had it that it went with him when he set sail. However, it was either not taken from Middle Earth, or was taken and brought back maybe by Gandalf, or a new elessar stone was made by Celebrimbor. This Elessar stone, whatever it's origin, was set in a brooch by Celebrimbor and Galadriel came to possess it. She gave it to Celebrian, who have it to Arwen, who gave it to Galadriel who gave it to Aragorn. Like the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, the Elessar Stone is one f those things that has some inconsistency in its history due to the different tales and drafts and notes.

Likewise but to a lesser extent the history of the Three Rings. I believe Galadriel was present in Eregion when Celebrimbor forged the Three, and Galadriel took possession of Nenya. But the three had to remain concealed as long as the One Ring was in possession of Sauron. Maybe after the Last Alliance and Sauron losing the One Ring, The Three could then be worn and so Galadriel in time passed the Elessar Stone on to Celebrian.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
Lord_Sauron
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on: September 16, 2016 11:00
Firstly I could be wrong as I haven't read any of Tolkien's books for a few Years or so. With regarding the Elessar stone I am under the impression that Gandalf gave the Elessar stone to Galadriel and told her that someday she would give it to the rightful King. Again I could be wrong.

Here is a link from Tolkiengateway.net
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elfstone

[Edited on 09/17/2016 by Lord_Sauron]
Elthir
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on: September 17, 2016 07:29
Arveleg said:I believe the Elessar stone has a vague history. (...) Eärendil the Mariner came to possess it and legend had it that it went with him when he set sail. However, it was either not taken from Middle Earth, or was taken and brought back maybe by Gandalf, or a new elessar stone was made by Celebrimbor.


I don't recall textual evidence for the idea that the stone was not taken from Middle-earth... that is: either Gandalf brought back the original stone, or Celebrimbor made a second one, but in both internal concepts, the original was taken from Middle-earth.

Also, regarding my own earlier question above (why would Galadriel need the stone by the time Gandalf arrived in the Third Age, when she could use Nenya by this time), I've come up with a possible answer: I now believe the text refers to Olorin the Maia visiting Galadriel before she could wield Nenya even if she had it (and thus she would have use for the Elessar-stone), not Gandalf the wizard.

Looking at the Wikiquote:

The Elessar, or at least the first of them, was made in Gondolin during the First Age. Some name Enerdhil the jewelsmith as its maker, but others say it was his pupil, Celebrimbor son of Curufin.[1]


This appears to treat the final note -- a note separated from the Elessar text by Christopher Tolkien in UT -- as if it's internal. I'm not sure that it is however, but in my opinion it doesn't necessarily have to be. To me "others say" (in the Wiki reference) implies that the two ideas were proposed within Middle-earth as part of the first legend -- as opposed to an external perspective (Tolkien changing his mind, and thus no one in Middle-earth would say this... just switch Enerdhil to Celebrimbor here).

Christopher Tolkien writes: "Enerdhil appears in no other writing; and the concluding words of the text show that Celebrimbor was to displace him as the maker of the Elessar in Gondolin."

That seems to me to suggest an external revision, rather than have this confusion be yet another facet of the internal legend. In other, other words, to my mind an equally valid interpretation of the final note is that Tolkien had rejected Enerdhil for Celebrimbor, rather than adding more confusion to two, already distinct legends.

This Elessar was saved from the Fall of Gondolin by Idril, who gave it to her son Eärendil, and with Eärendil it was carried across the Sea to the Blessed Realm.[1]


I agree with this: again there are two internal versions that purposely conflict, and the first of them relates that the Elessar made by Enerdhil in Gondolin passed over sea (even in the final note where Celebrimbor seems to replace Enerdhil, the first stone is again said to pass away).

A legend says that Celebrimbor, who was in love with Galadriel, remade another version of the lost jewel with less power than the original, in the Second Age. It was made as her behest, pained at the state of Middle-earth.[1]


Agreed again, this is part of the second internal version...

However another legend says that when the Wizards were sent from Valinor to Middle-earth in the Third Age, Olórin brought back Earendil's jewel as a token from Yavanna that the Valar had not forsaken them; as Gandalf, he gave it to Galadriel,...


Okay, but I note the same question I asked earlier here, as this Wikipage states outright that the stone was returned "in the Third Age". But the Third Age is not actually stated in the Elessar text itself, despite that we know Gandalf arrived in the Third Age... so again, why would Galadriel need the stone if in fact "Gandalf", sent in the Third Age, brought it to her at this point... Galadriel could already use Nenya in the Third Age...

... so in my answer I've noted the use of Olorin in the UT text, and as I say, I now think it's to emphasize that this visit was one that pre-dated the arrival of the wizards in the Third Age.

About Celebrimbor of Gondolin

Again I think the chronology behind these "unpublished" (by author) texts could be important. I think (or hope) I'm correct in saying that: in the Elessar text, as well as in the early version of Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, Celebrimbor was not necessarily a Feanorean when he was a jewel-smith in Gondolin...

... if so, when Tolkien ultimately imagined Celebrimbor as a Feanorean, and published this in the second edition of The Lord of the Rings (1960s) one might at least wonder: did this decision, at least in theory, impact the Elessar text? That is, was Celembrimbor the Feanorean "still" imagined to be in Gondolin at some point?

One could say yes, and try to explain why. Or I think one could say no. In the end we don't know, in my opinion, but my money here is on: when Celebrimbor became a Feanorean, he was never in Gondolin, and thus I might need to imagine some revision to the passages in UT, if I take the final note into consideration that is...

... and strangely, this is how it might work: if Celebrimbor the Feanorean was never in Gondolin, then Enerdhil is back in (!) displacing Celebrimbor (again, according to the end note, Celebrimbor had seemingly displaced Enerdhil), and [ahem]... it's Celebrimbor the Feanorean who can make a second Elessar stone...

... in Eregion!

Erm, kinda like the Elessar text... without the end note

[Edited on 09/17/2016 by Elthir]
Hanasian
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on: September 17, 2016 09:19
Yay! This necro-dive into the archives of Imladris paid off! I dio love book discussion!

Thanks much Elthir for your thoughts on this! With the varied bits you speak of, it would seem that there were two Elessar Stones in Middle Earth in the Third Age... one wrought by Celebrimbor in the Second Age, and the original one brought back to Middle Earth by Gandalf.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
Elthir
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on: September 18, 2016 12:36
Thanks Arveleg... and I hate to then go on and say this, but I don't think the meaning of the Elessar text is that there were two stones in Middle-earth in the Third Age. Perhaps I've been unclear but this gives me a chance to clarify. Apologies if and when I state the obvious!

The Elessar text is somewhat unique in that it proposes two possible histories for the stone. As readers we know that both cannot be true, but we also do not know which is true. Thus, within Middle-earth, some say one thing, others say another thing.

But this should not be confused with an external variation, in which Tolkien as author (that is, when not in his imagined role as translator), merely makes a change... when Tolkien as author revises Enerdhil to Celebrimbor for example, no one in Middle-earth would suggest this is yet another variant, as when Tolkien does this, Enerdhil ceases to exist within Middle-earth history, and merely becomes a rejected idea, just as there was no person named "Trotter" in The Lord of the Rings (rejected for "Strider" of course).

But with the Elessar text, Tolkien as translator is conveying that there are two different histories believed to exist within Middle-earth, that Bilbo, for instance, might have found in Imladris -- he reports both, not knowing which is true.

"In ages after there was again an Elessar, and of this two things are said, though which is true only those Wise could say who now are gone" [...] "The other tale runs so:"


The Wise are gone. These are internal characters, people who lived in Middle-earth, but it's too late now to verify which version is true, and the modern reader thus has two versions. So as I read things, there is either:

One Elessar in Middle-earth in the Third Age, and it's the first one, returned by Olorin.

Or

One Elessar in Middle-earth in the Third Age, a second one made by Celebrimbor in Eregion.

And that said, the end note

Again I don't think the end note is a third internal option. It seems to me to be a very brief summation of the two tales, though replacing Enerdhil with Celebrimbor in Gondolin. To me this is far more likely Tolkien the author revising, not Tolkien the "translator" adding more confusion to the two stories.

There is also yet another reference to a green stone in the Silmarillion papers for example, but this too (I would say) is also not meant to be imagined as an internal confusion.

The Later Quenta Silmarillion section 97: "A new page in the QS manuscript begins with the opening of this paragraph, and at the top of this page my father penciled: "The Green Stone of Feanor given by Maidros to Fingon." This can hardly be other than a reference to the Elessar that came in the end to Aragorn (...) It is clear, I think, that my father was at this time pondering the previous history of the Elessar, which had emerged in The Lord of the Rings; for his later ideas on its origin see Unfinished Tales..."

JRRT, CJRT, The War of the Jewels, Later Quenta Silmarillion


But if Wiki-pages are going to treat everything Tolkien put to paper about the Elessar as internal, then I think they are doing an injustice to Tolkien's creativity, as he arguably did not pen as many internal confusions as the Wiki articles might suggest.

Internal confusions are an art in themselves, pepper in the soup. The measure is up to Tolkien. If we mix internal, purposed confusions with external revisions, the story can seem more convoluted than Tolkien himself imagined it, and we might end up with "history" that Tolkien never wrote, one with too much "pepper".

Granted, it's not always easy to tell "what JRRT meant" but I believe here, with respect to the Elessar case anyway, there is good argument to glean the internal from the external. The further complication (in my opinion) however, being the Celebrimbor "as Feanorean" factor.

As we can see, the Wiki page has essentially merged the Elessar text with the detail of Celebrimbor's Feanorean heritage. Did Tolkien however? Not necessarily I think. At the time this text was written "Celebrimbor is here again a jewel-smith of Gondolin rather than one of the Feanorians;... [Christopher Tolkien's "here again" referring to the earlier version of Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn].

So things can get rather muddy here, but I think that's the fun of it sometimes. If I were writing a Wiki page about the Elessar stone, it would be longer and possibly more confusing...

... but fun!

And then someone would come along and change it

[Edited on 09/18/2016 by Elthir]
Hanasian
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on: May 28, 2023 09:09
Would love to see you write up the wiki page Elthir!
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