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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Chapter I- The Childhood of Turin
on: July 30, 2007 12:40
Please feel free to post your own questions on each chapter. Here's a couple to start things off;


1)Could the 'Evil Breath' that killed Urwen be considered a Plague like those of the Middle Ages?

2) Hurin spent much of his time away from his family, in the company of Elves. What are the advantages and disadvantages of this relationship?
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As other questions get asked, I'll add them to this post

3 Name the three or four people who, as of this chapter, had the greatest impact on Turin in his youth and discuss how they affected him.

4. What do you think of the way Morwen reacted to Laliath's death? Was she to harsh in her response to Turin?





[Edited on 2/8/2007 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Makil
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Post RE: Chapter I- The Childhood of Turin
on: July 30, 2007 02:33
Hey PH
The Evil Breath could have been like the plague.
Since it mostly affected children , I took it to be a children's sickness like Diphtheria , Scarlet Fever, or Whooping cough . Growing up in the 40s I used to hear horrer stories about all the children lost to these sickneses in the US, in the early 1900s. Possibly these were in England also ,possibly Master Tolkien experianced them. ??
I think Hurin spent a lot of time with the Elves, because he admired them and wanted to learn from them.
The advantage would be gaining lands and titles if the Elves were successful.
The disadvantage would be , if the elves fall you fall with them.
And even if you are successful your children grow up without you.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Chapter I- The Childhood of Turin
on: July 30, 2007 08:41
1)Could the 'Evil Breath' that killed Urwen be considered a Plague like those of the Middle Ages?

I think it could - a plague, or any other infectious disease that spread as a pandemic, like the Spanish flu just some 90 years ago. Before vaccines and antibiotics were invented, diseases like that could have quite devastating effects on the population. Not to mention that, in ancient times, the origin of such diseases was thought to be supernatural.
Ilandir
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Post RE: Chapter I- The Childhood of Turin
on: July 31, 2007 08:45
1)Could the 'Evil Breath' that killed Urwen be considered a Plague like those of the Middle Ages?

Yes it can be considered as a plague, spreading throughout the lands sickness and death.

2) Hurin spent much of his time away from his family, in the company of Elves. What are the advantages and disadvantages of this relationship?

The advantages are that, you have a strong leader (Hurin) who acquires much knowledge, lore and military tactics from the skilled Elves, with which he could later give to his own people (men - who are much less powerful than elves) to help them in their everyday lives.

The disadvantages would be, that his children would not be brought up with a father figure, except for certain occasions. And his abscence also creates a low morale throughout the soldiers of his house.

[Edited on 31/7/2007 by Ilandir]
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Chapter I- The Childhood of Turin
on: August 01, 2007 10:13
new question
3 Name the three or four people who, as of this chapter, had the greatest impact on Turin in his youth and discuss how they affected him.
__________________________________________________
Comments on the first two questions
1) At first I wanted to compare the Evil Breath with the Black Death (Bubonic Plague), but I now think that it was more like the Spanish Flu epidemic. The Black Death seems far more scary and devastating an epidemic than the Black Breath with the devlopment of lymph node buboes and a mossy, discoloured tongue on its victims.
2) On advantage of living with the elves is the chance to learn from their vast experience as many of them had centures and more to accumulate knowledge and wisdom. The downsides are the risk of feeling that their is no sense in trying to figure things out for yourself as the Elves have had ample time to discover everything first and their is also a great risk of devoping a sense of inferiority because of thioe same long lives, all of that acquired knowledge and experience and their b etter health as far as healing and not getting ill.
Lathan
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Post RE: Chapter I- The Childhood of Turin
on: August 01, 2007 01:54
Greetings. I am new here.

1) At first I wanted to compare the Evil Breath with the Black Death (Bubonic Plague), but I now think that it was more like the Spanish Flu epidemic. The Black Death seems far more scary and devastating an epidemic than the Black Breath with the devlopment of lymph node buboes and a mossy, discoloured tongue on its victims.

2) On advantage of living with the elves is the chance to learn from their vast experience as many of them had centures and more to accumulate knowledge and wisdom. The downsides are the risk of feeling that their is no sense in trying to figure things out for yourself as the Elves have had ample time to discover everything first and their is also a great risk of devoping a sense of inferiority because of thioe same long lives, all of that acquired knowledge and experience and their b etter health as far as healing and not getting ill.

3) Name the three or four people who, as of this chapter, had the greatest impact on Turin in his youth and discuss how they affected him.



1) It's also mindful that disease is a way to break the social order and that germs have often been used as weapons. In many wars like World War I, I believe more soldiers died from illness than combat.

2) I'm reminded of Aragorn, similarly displaced with the elves. He knows their ways, yet it seems to hurt him more when they depart to the Grey Havens.

3) One character was Turin's younger sister Urwen (Lalaith), whom Turin cherished, likely for her innocence.
Dolwen
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Post RE: Chapter I- The Childhood of Turin
on: August 01, 2007 02:17
Hurin spent much of his time away from his family, in the company of Elves. What are the advantages and disadvantages of this relationship?
I think the advantages would be that he would learn great wisdom from the elves and also the have help in the protection of his homelands. The disadvantages would be of course to be away from his family so long. Also Turin didn't feel as close to his father when he was young because his father spoke and acted like the elves he was with so often and it was strange to Turin, who didn't quite understand.

Name the three or four people who, as of this chapter, had the greatest impact on Turin in his youth and discuss how they affected him.
Lalaith- Turin felt closer to her than to anyone at the time. He may not have learned how to truely love if he had not felt the way he did about his sister.
Sador- He was the only one who Turin felt he could really confide in. Sador taught him moral and how to trust.
Morwen- I think her ability to remain strong in any situation had an impact on Turin. He learned the strength he would need from here.

I also have a couple of questions to post, things that stuck out to me as I read.

4. What do you think of the way Morwen reacted to Laliath's death? Was she to harsh in her response to Turin?




KaimelarFalmarin
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Post RE: Chapter I- The Childhood of Turin
on: August 02, 2007 09:33
I think one could view Morwen's stoic, cold nature regarding her daughter's death as another example of her strength. She is obviously a truly capable and intellectual woman, and in some ways is doing more than a "woman's job." As was previously mentioned, her husband is often away, and so she is left to run the household. She is also trusted with information regarding the state of the war, and Hurin seeks her council in such matters. I believe her harshness reflects the harshness of the times (after all, there is a near hopeless war raging).

This is not to say that her regard of her daughter's death is right (or wrong), but simply that it definitely required great strength.

Along these lines... one passage that struck me as particularly moving was in which Turin took up his harp in attempt to compose a lament for his sister, but could not. Instead, the only thing he could do was an act of violence (breaking his harp) and an angry oath. Perhaps Morwen's constant lack of emotion led to Turin's inability to express his own emotion (in this case: grief)?

Turin felt immense sadness at the death of his sister, but it probably looked to him that his mother was unaffected by it - this would rightly confuse a child. We later learn that Turin didn't understand death (he questions Sador about it), and yet he experienced his sister's death alone (his mother would not reach out to him). Perhaps this led to him expressing his grief in the only way he knew how: an act of futile violence. Turin himself is not an angry soul, was merely never taught another way to deal with his emotion.

Or something like that.
symphonyofarda
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Post RE: Chapter I- The Childhood of Turin
on: August 02, 2007 02:31
1) I think the Evil Breath was more like the biblical plagues. Likely brought on by Morgoth, it was more like a divine curse than a real disease. Or maybe it was a real disease, just not a natural one; it was something concocted by Morgoth and his minions in Angband, brought down on "an ill wind from the North on leaden skies." lol: Biowarfare in ME.

2)
The downsides are the risk of feeling that their is no sense in trying to figure things out for yourself as the Elves have had ample time to discover everything first and their is also a great risk of devoping a sense of inferiority because of thioe same long lives, all of that acquired knowledge and experience and their b etter health as far as healing and not getting ill

Definately. It must have been hard for men, always living in the shadow of elves. Perhaps a feeling of inferiority was the reason Hurin broke his harp; his music simply couldn't measure up to the arts of the elves. They didn't really have a feeling of ownership over their own culture because everything they learned had come from the elves. Consequently, they must have felt that they were lacking an identity of their own; that they were somehow just some branch of the elves, doomed to never reach adulthood but forever remain their children.
On the other hand, by Hurin living among the elves, far away from his own home, he would always know what was going on in the world and could learn how to defend his people from their enemies. After all, the isolationist attitude of the hobbits during the War of the Ring didn't do them much good, did it?

4) Indeed, Morwen was quite stoic and it was for this that others perceived her to be strong. Surely, much of Turin's strength came from her, but with it came a lack of self-understanding and therefore an inability to deal with his emotions.





[Edited on 3/8/2007 by symphonyofarda]
Lomelindi_of_Moonlight
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Post RE: Chapter I- The Childhood of Turin
on: August 02, 2007 06:58
As for the "Evil Breath," i agree with most everyone else that it was plague-like in the way it infected so many, but i also see it as a more spiritual and psychological sickness for the people.
Likely brought on by Morgoth, it was more like a divine curse than a real disease. Or maybe it was a real disease, just not a natural one; it was something concocted by Morgoth and his minions in Angband, brought down on "an ill wind from the North on leaden skies."

Thanks, symphonyofarda!! I definately think it was like a tri-fold method by Morgoth to attack the Edains' body, mind, and spirit with something that brought despair more easily to them than it could his other enemies the elves. (Just like the darkness creeping from Mordor through Sauron's power in LoTR)

And the people I saw influencing Turin in his childhood the most would be Urwen his sister, Sador, and his mother Morwen. Urwen seemed to be the greater part of his joy as a child because it gave him someone to love and protect in those troubled times; she was a little bit of the magical and light-hearted world that mezmorized him in such a dreary time. With her passing, there was a very empty void (he broke his beloved harp in response to the evil done to his family, and it silenced the music that Urwen had brought to his life). Sador claimed he was not a very wise or learned man, but he gave Turin practical advice and more straightforward answers to his many questions than both his parents combined. If it were left up to his mother Morwen, Turin would never have been consoled about his sister's death. Sador was his first friend that cared about his fate and visa-versa. Morwen on the otherhand taught Turin to keep emotion on a leash and to bury pain. Maybe this was good for Morwen, but it proved to backfire on Turin later, so I don't if you can justify if this was good for Turin to learn from her. Wow. That was a lot to say, but I just keep thinking of things as I go!
Dwarflord
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Post RE: Chapter I- The Childhood of Turin
on: August 04, 2007 02:26
Among the people, who had the greatest influence on Turin, I think Sador is the most important. I think he was like the father Turin never had (Hurin was always away, he had lots of things to do). I think that the fact that Turin gave him a present (that he in part got from his father) is a very important clue. Turin trusted and loved Sador as if he was family. He could'nt talk to his mother, because of her pride and he could'nt talk to his father, because he was usually abroad.


Sador claimed he was not a very wise or learned man, but he gave Turin practical advice and more straightforward answers to his many questions than both his parents combined


I agree Lomelindi, in a way Sador "was" his parents. In those crucial moments, he told him things, that either his mother or father should have told him, to ease his sorrow.


[Edited on 4/8/2007 by Dwarflord]
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