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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Chapter II The Battle of Unnumbered Tears
on: August 12, 2007 04:51
This is a short chapter, but much of the material is covered in more detail in The Silmarillion, Chapter 20

1) How does this battle change the situation on Middle-earth? Can anything be salvaged or is all hope gone?

2) If you were an Elf-lord would you use men in your forces? When an Elf-warrior is killed, his fea can go to the Halls of Mandos but when a man is killed it seems that his short life is permanently over and he is lost forever.

3) The dismembering of Gelmir: Can you think of at least two reasons that this was a mistake?

4)Can you explain, for the Book Club participants that haven't read The Silmarillion, why Thingol sent no forces to help in this battle?
Lomelindi_of_Moonlight
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Post RE: Chapter II The Battle of Unnumbered Tears
on: August 14, 2007 04:09
To answer the first question: In my mind, the result of the battle was a 99.9% hope killer....the .01% that remains is in Turgon and the hidden realm of Gondolin...other than that life in ME is looking terribly bleak. Suddenly no one is safe, and Morgoth seems more crafty and nasty than ever. It's a definant wake up call for the inhabitants of ME that sheer numbers cannot defeat Morgoth, but only action from the Valar aiding Turgon can this happen.

2nd question: That would be a tough call for me, (if I ever had the opportunity to be an Elf Lord) and I would make sure they knew the very worst could happen and that everything might fail. That way they could make the choice themselves, it's their life, so it would be their decision.
Ilandir
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Post RE: Chapter II The Battle of Unnumbered Tears
on: August 14, 2007 10:32
1) How does this battle change the situation on Middle-earth? Can anything be salvaged or is all hope gone?

Well, when you begin reading about the battle, you see all the Elf-Lords and Captains of Men reunited together with such vast numbers, one would think that the outcome will be victorious. I for one believed so and thought that Morgoth's tide would be held or destroyed and that the Elves and Men would gain a certain amount of ground.
But as the battle progresses, hope starts failing and just like a chain reaction, little by little, the battle for the Elves and Men, is lost. And as Lomelindi pointed out, it is a realisiation that it is nearly impossible to defeat Morgoth by their own forces, if not for the Valar. And since the Elves have left the Valar, they lose such hope as is remained in them, since they might believe that the Valar might not come to their aid after they left the Blessed Realm. Thus, giving much advantage to Morgoth's dominion.

2) If you were an Elf-lord would you use men in your forces? When an Elf-warrior is killed, his fea can go to the Halls of Mandos but when a man is killed it seems that his short life is permanently over and he is lost forever.

Indeed I would. Even though men is a weaker race, there are a quite large number of them who are courageous and able to fight in certain-death situations and such soldiers are needed if any action is to be carried out for the common good against Morgoth.
That is one of the many mysteries that Tolkien has left us with. It is not certain what is the faith of men, but I believe that Iluvatar sent them into the world for a purpose and after their death they would be rewarded for their life on earth and probably be taken into Iluvatar's Halls themselves (above Arda itself).

3) The dismembering of Gelmir: Can you think of at least two reasons that this was a mistake?

Who's mistake would it be? The Orcs? for letting the rage of the Elves fall upon them. Or the Elves? for attacking so quickly without any kind of organiziation?

4)Can you explain, for the Book Club participants that haven't read The Silmarillion, why Thingol sent no forces to help in this battle?

Well, I've read the Silmarillion twice now and I think that the answer is that Turgon didn't want to reveal himself yet to Morgoth and he still needed to strengthen his army. Only when the time was ready would the doors of Gondolin be opened and Turgon would reveal his hiding place and fight his last battle.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Chapter II The Battle of Unnumbered Tears
on: August 20, 2007 03:52
3) The dismembering of Gelmir: Can you think of at least two reasons that this was a mistake?

Firstly it enraged the Elves far more than was planned and almost lead to a defeat.
Secondly, would it not encourage the Elves to keep fighting even when there was no hope of success as it was very clear by the way that Gelmir was treated that they could never surrender.
Dolwen
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Post RE: Chapter II The Battle of Unnumbered Tears
on: August 24, 2007 06:25
1) How does this battle change the situation on Middle-earth? Can anything be salvaged or is all hope gone?

This battle costs many men and elves their lives. They all became smaller and scattered people after this. There is always hope.

2) If you were an Elf-lord would you use men in your forces? When an Elf-warrior is killed, his fea can go to the Halls of Mandos but when a man is killed it seems that his short life is permanently over and he is lost forever.

I suppose I would use men who were willing. The elves weren't as great in number without men and the men would have likely felt offended to be left out of the battle as warfare was honorable to them.

4)Can you explain, for the Book Club participants that haven't read The Silmarillion, why Thingol sent no forces to help in this battle?

Thingol wouldn't send forces to battle because the Sons of Feanor had made threats to him to return the Silmaril or they would take it by force. Also because of the wrong Celegorm and Curufin did to Beren and Luthien.
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