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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Chapter V, Turin in Doriath
on: September 17, 2007 12:09
1) When asking King Thingol for companions and for permission to leave Doriath and go back to help his people, why does Turin invoke the name of Beren; and why does Melian caution him about doing so?

2)what is significant about Saeros being a friend to Daeron?


3) Much of what occurs in this story seems to be the result of errors of judgment or poor decisions being made. What errors of judgment were made in this chapter?
Dolwen
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Post RE: Chapter V, Turin in Doriath
on: September 21, 2007 10:04
1) When asking King Thingol for companions and for permission to leave Doriath and go back to help his people, why does Turin invoke the name of Beren; and why does Melian caution him about doing so?

Turin was bringing up Beren to say that one man alone is worthy of doing harm against Morgoth. Melian cautions him because she can see that his destiny is not the same as Beren's and the shadow of Morgoth that lies on him.

2)what is significant about Saeros being a friend to Daeron?
I think the significance is the Daeron was in love with Luthien and when she ran off with Beren, Daeron thinking she was likely dead fled Doriath and never returned. Saeros doesn't like Men, especially Turin, because of Beren.

3) Much of what occurs in this story seems to be the result of errors of judgment or poor decisions being made. What errors of judgment were made in this chapter?

If Morwen would have come to Doriath, Turin would have been in better spirits than he was.

Turin should have paid more attention to where he was sitting in the hall and avoided Saeros and maybe things would have been differently.

If Mablung had known the full truth and if Turin had told him, Mablung's words and actions would have been different and Turin wouldn't have felt he had to flee.




cirdaneth
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Post RE: Chapter V, Turin in Doriath
on: September 26, 2007 10:21
1) When asking King Thingol for companions and for permission to leave Doriath and go back to help his people, why does Turin invoke the name of Beren; and why does Melian caution him about doing so?

Turin is a very young human male with something to prove … (the worth of Men in general, and his own role as protector of his kin) so it is natural that he leans towards Beren as his family hero. Melian reminds him that it was Beren and Luthien combined who achieved their quest, and she hints that Turin’s fate is not set so high. She also feels he’s sailing a bit close to the wind with Thingol at this point.

2)what is significant about Saeros being a friend to Daeron?

Turin was born in the very year that Beren found his way into Doriath and met Luthien. Daeron had been in love with her. By the time Turin arrived to be fostered as a child, the main events of this tale had been played out. Luthien’s choice of soul-mortality and her departure with Beren were quite recent. They still lived, but were far away and cut off from their kin. Any hopes Daeron might have had of marrying Luthien (and fathering an heir to Doriath) were gone,and with them any hopes Saeros might have had of continuing influence in that quarter. Luthien was missed, Daeron, I think had already wandered off Eastward in misery. A sadness had settled over Doriath which must have been compounded by the appearance of a relative of Beren’s however young and vulnerable. Thingol and Melian were dutiful and generous in accepting him, and mindful of the workings of destiny, as were most of their folk, but Saeros had lost his friend and his prospects, and being a very ambitious elf, he was mightily resentful.

3) Much of what occurs in this story seems to be the result of errors of judgment or poor decisions being made. What errors of judgment were made in this chapter?

This chapter starts off on the right foot. Thingol very sensibly sees that Turin has ways to go yet in physical growth and muscular strength and skill, and yet he needs to try his hand at a few real skirmishes. Turin, himself, though impatient, dutifully goes off to learn his skills on the borders. So far, so good. But Turin is only 17 when he leaves and 20 when he returns. Saeros thinks he can still taunt him as if he were a kid.

I don’t know if Saeros makes errors of judgement as such, as judgement doesn’t appear to be his strong point! I don’t think he stops to judge anything. He thinks he’s invincible. Ambition and arrogance drive him, and the added resentment of Beren and his kin. He likes to push people’s buttons, and when he doesn’t get a response, he pushes harder. Turin’s error of judgement at this point is to stay and take it. He should laughed off the earlier remarks and walked away. But Turin doesn’t know how to laugh. Laughter was the name of his little sister who died of the Evil Breath. The laughter of his home died with her and he grew up humourless.

It is a grim irony that Turin strips Saeros before chasing him. Saeros spent most of his life safely within the Girdle of Melian, clean and tidy, well-dressed and fed and with no need to get dirty. His love of appearances and scorn for those who risked their skins living hard lives on the borders was a severe error. His courage was all in his attire and once stripped of it he was nothing.

Thingol’s judgement of Turin’s case is wise and generous, and the only other big error is Beleg’s choice of sword, which he takes despite Melian’s warning. Perhaps Thingol should have chosen one for him … or let Melian choose. So maybe his greatest error of judgement was in not consulting his wife.

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