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Iavas87
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Post Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: March 16, 2008 08:15
From what I've gathered, the Ruling Stewards of Gondor are descendant from High Numenorean families but not from the line of Elendil. What I'm curious about is whether the Stewards have any relation with Elros, since that would determine whether they have Elvish blood in them. Any quotes on the matter would really be appreciated.

ED: I've added to the title to reflect the direction we've taken.

[Edited on 7/4/2008 by cirdaneth]
Cressida
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: March 16, 2008 10:12
Iavas,

If you don't mind me blowing my own horn a bit, I wrote an essay on this very subject, which can be found in Elrond's Library on this site:

The Stewards and the Royal Family of Gondor: Are They Related?

The short answer is that I think it is highly likely, but there's no definite proof without going to Peoples of Middle-Earth.

Also, remember that Denethor's wife was the sister of Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth, and that family has a separate Elvish heritage via Mithrellas and Imrazor.

[Edited on 16/3/2008 by Cressida]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: March 16, 2008 09:32
Thanks Cressida! That's what we needed. Your article has just the quotes I would have spent hours hunting for ... if i had any hours that is.

I think there is a common inheritance myself.
Iavas87
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: March 20, 2008 02:26
Cressida, you are awesome. Thank you for writing that article and linking me to it. My primary concern was the elven strain in the line of Stewards, not necessarily descent form Elendil. After considering it some more, taking your essay into account, I decided that it is most likely that even if the line of Stewards were not related to Elendil by any close blood relation (esp. through the male line, though according to the later laws of Numenore, that shouldn't matter for the acquisition of rule), it still probably came from the Faithful. Most of the faithful came from the Andúnië and thus likely descendant from Silmariën and, looking back far enough, Elros. This means that they might still have some inkling of Elven blood. That little elvish strain appears to be particularly dominant, expressing itself in wisdom, long age, and general beardlessness. I think it is likely that the Stewards had a bit of it in their bloodline.
Cressida
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: March 31, 2008 07:44
Regarding elven blood, I tend to think that pretty much all the Dúnedain in Middle-Earth at the time of the War of the Ring must be descended from Elros in one way or another. As I said in the essay, it's a limited gene-pool, and they've been intermarrying for 3,000 years by then! So whether or not the Stewards were descended from Elros at the time the family came from Númenor, I think it's virtually certain that they are by the time LOTR takes place.

(Also, I see that the discussion between me and Sepdet about parallels between the Stewards of Gondor and the Lords of Andúnië has been purged from the forum by now. Fortunately, I saved the discussion and reproduced the relevant part in my Livejournal, here.)

Another point to consider: not all of the special traits which are seen among Númenoreans are dependent on elven blood. The gifts of long life, heightened mental powers, physical beauty (arguably including beardlessness), and the ability to choose the time of their deaths were granted by the Valar to all Númenoreans, not just to the line of Elros. Is there a particular trait that you're wondering whether the Stewards would have?

[Edited on 31/3/2008 by Cressida]
Iavas87
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: March 31, 2008 10:53
It was just a general train of thought, though it was the beardlessness that got it started. As I was trying to envision the characters in mind while reading, I ran into that particular conundrum. It seemed pretty certain that Aragorn had no facial hair (despite Viggo's slow and gradual transformation in the course of the films), but what about Denethor and his sons?

As for the gifts granted by the Valar to the Dúnedain, I thought that they were limited to the island of Númenor and a longer span of years. I do not remember wisdom, beauty, and an everlasting clean shave being part of the package. Either way, the king's line was longer lived and generally 'different' from the common Númenorean people. This, at least, I attribute to the influence of elven/maia blood via Elros. That bloodline passed down via Silmariën to the Lords of Andúnië, the Elendili, and then the kings of Arnor and Gondor. After scanning the link you posted (I'll read it more carefully when I have more free time), it seems you share my opinion that the Stewards were of High Númenorean ancestry and thus had some elvish blood. This is evidenced by Denethor being downright spry at the time of The Lord of the Rings, despite being in his late eighties. I doubt the common people of Gondor, Númenorean blood or no, had that kind of longevity. The only logical reason why the Stewards did not claim the throne was because their descent from Elros was through a more feminine line than that of the more 'royal' High Númenorean Elendili.

[Edited on 31/3/2008 by Iavas87]
Cressida
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 06, 2008 06:17
Ah, the beardlessness question! One of my favorite discussions. It's kind of like the "Balrog wings" debate for fans of the Númenoreans. For what it's worth, I like to see them all as beardless too--naturally beardless, not clean-shaven. I suspect that Tolkien had different thoughts on the subject at different times in his life, but that should leave the fans room to choose whichever interpretation they prefer.

Here are the quotes from which I draw my information about the gifts of the Númenoreans. The most explicit one is from Tolkien's Letter #212:

"They [the Númenoreans] became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the Elves..."


If they can hardly be told apart from Elves, that strongly suggests physical beauty, and possibly beardlessness as well. Another very strongly-worded quote, from The Silmarillion, "Akallabêth":

"To the Fathers of Men of the three faithful houses rich reward also was given. Eönwë came among them and taught them; and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have possessed."

And a little later:

"Therefore they grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of Middle-earth; and the light of their eyes was like the bright stars."

Finally, the evidence that all Númenoreans, not just the kings, could choose the time of their death:

"But for all this Death did not depart from the land, rather it came sooner and more often, and in many dreadful guises. For whereas aforetime men had grown slowly old, and had laid them down in the end to sleep, when they were weary at last of the world, now madness and sickness assailed them...."


I agree with you that the royal line was even more gifted. "Akallabêth" again:
"But to Elros, who chose to be a king of Men, still a great span of years was allotted, many times that of the Men of Middle-earth; and all his line, the kings and lords of the royal house, had long life even according to the measure of the Númenóreans."

I'm just trying to make the case that even "ordinary" Númenoreans had a lot of special traits which might still be still around, if only in diluted form, by the end of the Third Age.

I agree with you regarding Denethor's vigor, and Appendix A also tells us that he was "aged before his time by his contest with the will of Sauron." About the normal lifespan of the average folk of Gondor, RoTK says this in "The Houses of Healing":

"...indeed the span of their lives had now waned to little more than that of other men, and those among them who passed the tale of five score years with vigour were grown few, save in some houses of purer blood."


The theory that the Stewards are related to the royal family (and thus, descended from Elros) via a female line makes sense to me. It would almost certainly have to be through a younger daughter too, IMO, since Elendil and Aragorn were descended from eldest (Silmarien) or only (Fíriel) daughters. (ETA: I realize that descent from Anárion through Fíriel was only part of Aragorn's claim to the throne. I'm just trying to say that the Stewards have to be related in a way that gives them no claim whatsoever.)

[Edited on 7/4/2008 by Cressida]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 06, 2008 06:43
About the facial hair question - Tolkien's own idea was that male elves did get a beard "in the third stage of their life", whatever that was (it's somewhere in the HoME, but I can't find the reference right now). And, Círdan is indeed described having a beard. Also, at least the broken statue at the Cross-roads had a beard. So, maybe the Númenóreans were like the elves in this in the way that, they were beardless in their youth and middle age, but did get a beard when they grew old?
Cressida
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 06, 2008 09:37
I think that theory makes a lot of sense. We don't get a very detailed description of the king in the statue, so it's perfectly possible that he might be "in the third stage of life."

I recently thought of another possible reason why the king might have a beard--aside from the possibility that maybe all Men in Middle-Earth are bearded, of course. What if the statue is of Eldacar, the half-Númenorean king whose accession caused the Kinstrife, or one of his near descendants? We know that people were afraid he was going to age faster than a full Númenorean; maybe their reason for thinking this was that he was bearded, or started growing a beard at a younger age than usual. It's pure speculation, but I think it's a plausible theory!
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 07, 2008 10:36
Perhaps we should define beardlessness. Does it mean they cannot grow one ... or that they choose not to do so?

Elves maintain their bodies by will and memory and presumably control their endocrine systems likewise. You can't tell me elves don't have testosterone!! They just seem to channel it rather specifically, at particular times of their lives.

Perhaps PB should post something. He's got a beard I think.

BTW do I detect here a worrying trend for CoE women to prefer men without secondary sexual characteristics. My my! Whatever would Freud have made of it? :rolleyes:
Cressida
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 07, 2008 10:41
I don't think beards or lack of beards have anything to do with testosterone in Tolkien's world. After all, hobbits don't grow beards either, and they have the largest families in Middle-Earth!

And I'd hardly call two people "a worrying trend." It seems like everywhere else I go, I get shouted down by fans of "sexy stubble," so I'm actually thrilled to find someone else who likes the "beardless" idea! Besides, it's not like I have anything against beards as a matter of principle; some guys look better with them (I much prefer Sean Bean bearded to unbearded, for instance). I just think it's kind of a cool idea, and fitting for the book characters. I don't think it's any kind of deep statement about my psyche.

[Edited on 7/4/2008 by Cressida]
Iavas87
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 07, 2008 04:24
Just for the record, I'm male and quite heterosexual, as far as things go. So, if I have any subconscious preoccupation with beards or the lack thereof, it would only have to be that they are annoying as various everliving expletives - both to wear and to shave. However, the reason for this thread is markedly less Freudian - I simply wanted to know how to envision and hopefully draw the sons of Denethor.

Also, by beardlessness I mean specifically the genetic inability to grow hair on the lower portion of ones face. The reason I say genetic is because that is what seems to determine the trait in Tolkien's works. It runs in lineages such as the Fallowhides, the ruling Númenoreans, and the entire Elven race (prior to their third stage of life, at which point they apparently metamorphize into an equally fair but slightly more hairy butterfly).

I did not think of the statue. It's been a while since I've read that part of the books, and it would be great to have a quote to see if the statue definitely had a beard and if the person whom it represents is at all hinted at. I shall hopefully be happily reunited with my Tolkien books this weekend and post any relevant quotes then, if nobody beats me to it. Not to dismiss your interesting theory, Cressida, but for some reason I doubt that Eldacar would have had a beard, since he was the ancestor of Aragorn, whom I believe is explicitly described as beardless due to the elvish strain in The Unfinished Tales. Also Elves only reach their third stage of life after living for thousands of years, so unless the Númenoreans inheritted this unusual graded aging proportional to their own lifespans, then they would not have had to worry about ever reaching the third stage. That's a mighty tentative "unless", though, because there is unfortunately not enough written about these stages of aging to support or refute any such theories.

[Edited on 8/4/2008 by Iavas87]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 07, 2008 09:18
However, the reason for this thread is markedly less Freudian -
Yes, Iavas, I thought we'd got a bit off your topic but wasn't sure how to steer it back. Meanwhile ...

... I'm sorry Cressida, my remarks were made humourously and were no slur on anyone's psyche. Indeed, what Freud would make of my preference for furry faces, not to mention long hair and earings, I dread to think. No matter .. most men my age are now bald, so even if bearded have merely solved the problem of production rather than distribution. *sigh*.

OK folks ... back to the physical descriptions so that Iavas can get out his sketch-pad.


Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 08, 2008 06:03
About the broken statue:
The eyes were hollow and the carven beard was broken, but about the stern forehead there was a coronal of silver and gold. A trailing plant with flowers like small white stars had bound itself across the brows as if in reverence of the fallen king, and in the crevices of his stony hair yellow stonecrop gleamed. (TTT, Journey to the Cross-roads)

I haven't found any information about the identity of the king.
Iavas87
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 08, 2008 06:45
Thanks for the quote, Morwinyoniel. My entire hypothesis of beardless kings (based on the quote from Unfinished Tales) is in jeopardy! Maybe it was a fake Egyptian style beard . I'm tempted to just write this off as an instance of Tolkien changing his mind, as he was wont to do, about the physical characteristics of the Dúnedain. If it's the case though, I have no clue as to what his final decision was (or would be). Cressida is right... this is as confusing as the Balrog debates. :banghead:
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 08, 2008 11:22
Heeeelp! Iavas! I can't find the beardless Aragorn quote in UT. I've been trying to hunt it down today.

I did find the words "they grew no hair below their eyebrows" but that was about the Druedain, not the Dunedain, so I'm stumped. Can we have the reference please!

BTW It's possible that the king at the crossroads was Earnur, last King of Gondor, who rode to Minas Morgul in response to a personal challenge from the Withch King, and was never seen again.

Just a thought.
Iavas87
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 08, 2008 12:58
Uhm... about that...

I noticed the following quote, supposedly by Christopher Tolkien from The Unfinished Tales, in the Wikipedia article for Aragorn (and we all know Wikipedia never lies).
"In a note written in 1972 or later, among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless)."
Now, I wouldn't really count that as evidence except that I vaguely remember actually reading it in the book. Unfortunately, I'm away from my books on weekdays, so I can't really help you find the page at the moment. If it's there, it is likely to be a footnote. I'll see what I can do on Friday.

Also, the statue could be any one of the kings, but its beard is still left unexplained. For no reason whatsoever, I kind of imagine it looking like the statue of Ashur-nasir-pal II. That's just my subconscious being weird, though.
Cressida
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 08, 2008 03:48
Morwinyoniel beat me to posting the quote about the broken statue. I don't think it's an absolute deal-breaker, but any theory about Dúnedain beardlessess definitely has to take the statue into account.

About the "third stage" of life, unfortunately, it's so vague that we have no way of knowing whether Men would experience it or when it would start. Maybe Men have it, just much sooner than Elves; or maybe they don't have it at all, as you say.

About Eldacar: Théoden might possibly be evidence that a half-Númenorean could grow a beard, at least in the later stages of life. It seems likely that his mother was fairly strongly Númenorean, as she was a relative of the Princes of Dol Amroth. (Of course, Théoden also ages at a rate nearer that of a non-Númenorean; but on the other hand, Éomer lives into his late 90s.) Again, it's far from conclusive, but it's evidence worth considering as long as we're speculating!

About Aragorn: I've gone looking for evidence about him in previous rounds of the "beards" debate, and I haven't found anything conclusive. In any case, there's nothing that says he does have a beard...nothing I can think of, anyway.

Iavas, you're lucky in one sense: If you are considering the question mainly for purposes of drawing the characters, then there isn't really a difference for your purposes between naturally beardless and clean-shaven. So either way, you can have the characters without beards. (I look forward to seeing your drawings, by the way. I wish I could draw, as I have very firm pictures of these characters in my head, but alas....)

ETA: I own UT, and I can confirm that the Wikipedia quote is accurate.

[Edited on 9/4/2008 by Cressida]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 08, 2008 10:16
I think we need to be very wary of stuff Tolkien wrote in the last ten years of his life. Much of it was contradictory, and/or experimental, and if taken as canon would have required the rewriting of the entire mythology.

My own thoughts are that he was pondering on the apearance of Imrahil when he wrote that note, and would have rejected the statement in favour of Imrahil's line having some some throw-back features.

The problem is that Tolkien really needed a Numenorean life-span in order to complete his work. Shame he had to die so "young".
Cressida
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 09, 2008 04:52
Maybe it was a fake Egyptian style beard .

I've actually considered that possibility, but it seems unlikely. Since Elves are beardless and are more powerful than Men, I don't think there would an association between beards and power in Middle-Earth.

I'm tempted to just write this off as an instance of Tolkien changing his mind, as he was wont to do, about the physical characteristics of the Dúnedain. If it's the case though, I have no clue as to what his final decision was (or would be).

It's my opinion that when Tolkien changes his mind (about Galadriel's backstory, for example), we get to choose whichever version we like best. Both versions came from his imagination, after all!

Anyway, one statue doesn't prove that all Númenoreans are bearded any more than Círdan proves that all Elves are bearded.

I think we need to be very wary of stuff Tolkien wrote in the last ten years of his life. Much of it was contradictory, and/or experimental, and if taken as canon would have required the rewriting of the entire mythology.

Goody, does that mean I can ignore that annoying bit in Peoples of Middle-Earth about Denethor's sisters? I like a lot of the extra information in PoME, but I simply cannot picture Denethor ever, at any age, being bossed around by two elder siblings. If I remember correctly, much of the information in PoME dates from the mid-1960s.

Anyway, even if you discount the note in UT, that still leaves the passages from Letter 212 and "Akallabêth," which are not based on Elvish blood specifically and which come from a much earlier period in JRRT's writing. If he changed his mind on the subject--which I think is entirely possible--then it looks like he was playing with the idea of Númenorean beardlessness for quite a bit of his writing career.

One thing to consider is that beards were out of fashion for much of JRRT's lifetime, except in certain circles (naval officers, for instance, which may be the reason behind Círdan's beard). He probably thought that not needing to shave would be a really cool "perk" to have.
Iavas87
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 09, 2008 06:27
Argh! I wrote up an entire reply and it was destroyed by a lousy internet connection. :banghead: :killcomp:

I forgot to include Thèoden's partially Númenorean ancestry in my considerations. With that and the bearded statue being in such sharp contrast to the various descriptions of beardless Dúnedain, it would seem that there is no ultimate conclusion left for us. Since Tolkien's later writings do appear to be on the verge of another reimagining of Arda and its history, it is hard to decide which parts of them are official decisions on the existing story and which were meant as changes for a potential future version. Personally, I try to accept those that do not change the published story too significantly. For example, I always imagine Sador Labadal as a Drúadan. Unfortunately, too many things are left still left in limbo.

@cirdaneth - I've often thought about how different Tolkien's creation would have been if he had all the time he wanted to 'finish' it. It might not have been better, per se, but it is likely to have been richer, more detailed, more internally consistent. Plus, we might have the answers to such pressing issues as Balrog aerodynamics, Legolas' hair color, and Númenorean facial hair. On the other hand, being a true artist, it is very likely that Tolkien would never have 'finished' his great work but rather kept perfecting and reimagining it. And, if he waited to publish until he was 'done', then we might never have gotten to read our favorite books. Still, I like to hope that somewhere in some Akashic records there is a perfectly described, consistent, and complete (in the eyes of the author) version of Arda.

It's strange how this thread went from the lineages of the Stewards to facial hair and finally to theosophic dreams. I blame myself.

[Edited on 9/4/2008 by Iavas87]
Cressida
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 09, 2008 08:10
Iavas, for what it's worth, I don't think Théoden is strong evidence one way or the other. We know very little about Morwen of Lossarnach, after all, and we also know that not every character with Númenorean ancestry gets the full heritage (see Boromir as compared to the rest of his family). Théoden does seem to age at what we would consider a normal rate; he also has blue eyes, not grey. More subjectively, he just feels like he belongs to Rohan; he doesn't really have any Dúnedain "flavor," although Éowyn does have a bit (and she has the grey eyes, too). So I don't put a great deal of weight on Théoden's case, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

I do wish sometimes that Tolkien were still alive so that we could write to him and ask these questions!
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Post RE: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: April 09, 2008 05:28
By the time of the war of the Ring, I don't think that a beard could indicate anything and I don't doubt that almost all of the citizens of Gondor would have been able to grow some sort of beard, or would have a bearded sibling, depending on the dominance or resessiveness of the various genes controling beard growth. In the more than 3000 years since the Elendili landed, I'm sure that there was a lot of inbreeding and even the purest lines would have some members able to grow beards.
It is quite possible that the bearded statue is that of one of the Gondorian Kings and he had one or more ancestors from common, non Numenorian.Gondorian families. Even if the genes that caused beardlessness were dominant, occasional beards could be possible in any family where both parents had one or more beard-capable ancestors
cirdaneth
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Post Re: Ruling Stewards - descent and characteristics.
on: November 23, 2012 09:30
*bump
Hanasian
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Post House of Húrin - Stewards of Gondor - of Noble Númenórean Descent.
on: May 28, 2023 10:38
What a wonderfully detailed discussion here! I believe there is some mention about the Dunedain lacking beards in Nature of Middle Earth that re-iterates what was quoted by Lavas87 from 'Unfinished Tales'.

Agreeing with Potbelly, by the end of the Third Age, the Dunedain blood of Gondor had been well and truly mixed with Rhovanion blood since at least the time of Minalcar/Rómendacil II. It led to a civil war in the 1400's. I would suspect that it would be much like native Americans being primarily 'beardless' but as blood was mixed with Europeans, more facial hair, though maybe sparse, appeared.

As for the question of the line of Stewards having Dunedain blood, it is stated in the Encyclopedia of Arda under the entry for Húrin of Emyn Arnen - "Húrin of Emyn Arnen is the earliest of Gondor's Stewards to have his name recorded in history. He served under King Minardil, and though we know little of his life, it is certain that his actions had a tremendous effect on the future history of Middle-earth. He was a Man of noble Númenórean descent, the founder of the House of Húrin from which Minardil's heirs came by tradition to select their own Stewards."

There is no mention of where this information is found in the notes, but I found the information in the Encyclopedia of Arda is usually sound. The information was derived from Appendix A at the back of Return of the King.

[Edited on 05/29/2023 by Hanasian]
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