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cirdaneth
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Post Black Numenoreans ... who? ... what?
on: January 07, 2009 11:31
The question arose in our Mouth of Sauron thread, as to where the other Black Numenoreans were during the War of the Ring. Their history is complex, and interesting, so I thought we should have a special thread for them.

... so here it is ... all yours



LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Black Numenoreans ... who? ... what?
on: January 08, 2009 05:39
Thank you, cirdaneth! I haven't a clue, so I'm looking forward to learning from everyone else. Where is their history recorded?
Beriandanwen
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Post RE: Black Numenoreans ... who? ... what?
on: January 15, 2009 12:26
This is a pure guess, but... Weren't they on the ships that dared to break the ban and attack Valinor (many of them, anyway)? Anyone left behind in Numenor died when it sank into the sea. A few had survived, those who had come to ME to enrich themselves off the people, perhaps the more powerful later becoming Ringwraiths. The Silmarilion tells of the many wars that took place in ME, of tyrants and servants of Sauron...

"And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Numenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-Earth." The Silmarilion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Black Numenoreans ... who? ... what?
on: January 18, 2009 10:53
Thanks for that quote, Beri. It puts the matter in a nutshell.

The situation up to then is quite complex and covers a great period of time. I'll try to write something on that when I've got a spare minute.
LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Black Numenoreans ... who? ... what?
on: January 19, 2009 11:01
OK--but where were they during the War of the Ring? Are the Easterlings and Southrons their descendants?
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Black Numenoreans ... who? ... what?
on: January 20, 2009 02:53
I think, from what I can gather from the books, that they lived in the areas south of Gondor that once belonged to the Númenóreans, around Umbar. The Easterlings and the Haradrim aren't their descendants, but I believe that they had mixed with the people of Near Harad.
Ilandir
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Post RE: Black Numenoreans ... who? ... what?
on: January 20, 2009 04:35
I second your comments Morwinyoniel. Most probably they lived on the coastal regions of Umbar and the closest contact they would have had was with Near Harad. It could also be possible that they pushed further east and into the heart of Harad - though there's nothing that confirms this.
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LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Black Numenoreans ... who? ... what?
on: January 20, 2009 04:49
Did they die out then? Or mingle with the lesser races and disappear? You would think that if there were large numbers of Black Numenoreans about, then Sauron would have had at least a battalion of them prominently displayed against Gondor. They would have been more fearsome even than Orcs, yes?
Ilandir
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Post RE: Black Numenoreans ... who? ... what?
on: January 20, 2009 09:32
I tend to believe that what you asked in your second question, LadyBeruthiel, is what really went on. I mean, probably there were only a few surviving Black Numenoreans and slowly, as they adapted to the regions around Harad, they became entagled in the other races. Though I'm sure that it's possible that during the war of the ring there were a handful of these still living by the coasts of Umbar - though why Sauron or his lieutenant didn't gather them under his army I don't know.

Cos even as you said, they surely would have been more fearsome and better in combat than the orcs.

[Edited on 21/1/2009 by Ilandir]
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Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Black Numenoreans ... who? ... what?
on: January 21, 2009 02:26
I think that among the Corsairs of Umbar there may have been quite a few Black Númenóreans or their descendants.
LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Black Numenoreans ... who? ... what?
on: January 21, 2009 03:15
I think that among the Corsairs of Umbar there may have been quite a few Black Númenóreans or their descendants.


That was my next thought, Morwinyoniel. I also wonder if it's possible that the Black Numenoreans had their own agenda. They may have paid some kind of worship or tribute to Sauron, but after all, they wouldn't have been of the temperament to be anyone's servants.

Now I wonder if Tolkien modeled the Corsairs of Umbar on the Barbary pirates. They sure sound like Black Numenoreans to me.

[Edited on 22/1/2009 by LadyBeruthiel]
Beriandanwen
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Post RE: Black Numenoreans ... who? ... what?
on: January 22, 2009 02:15
I believe, as you speculated, Lady Beruthiel, that they must have mingled with lesser races. After all, the Numenoreans were a very powerful race, only diminished when mixed with lesser races, something which limited their life-span, among other things. We don't hear of any particularly powerful human groups fighting for Sauron in the War of the Ring. Which leads to another speculation: though Numenoreans were long-lived, could even they have survived three whole ages of men? Apart from the Mouth of Sauron, that is, and even he may have been a descendant, though not mingled, perhaps.
Hanasian
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Post RE: Black Numenoreans ... who? ... what?
on: September 06, 2010 09:07
They had sided with Sauron in the 2nd Age and after his defeat in the Battle of the Last Alliance, the remnants remained in and around Umbar and mingled with the lesser people. Of course, during the Kin-strife, Castamir and his faction retreated to Umbar after he was overthrown, and so they too mingled in the same area. Always a source of trouble, The Corsairs of Umbar would raid the coast of Gondor and even west of Rohan, like in the 'Long Winter' of 2758-59 of the 3rd Age. Again later, Aragorn raided Umbar and sank their ships in I think 2980 befire the War of the Ring. Surely some in Umbar remembered their Numenorean heritage and their allegiance to Sauron when he again rose in power, and were good seafarers.
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