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cirdaneth
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Post Durin the Deathless
on: March 10, 2009 12:54
I am checking out our Encyclopedia entry for Durin I here to ensure that the facts as posted are verifiable from Tolkien. I’d appreciate feedback from you all to double-check some sources.

So we know that he:-

… was a dwarf, Father of the fathers of the Longbeards, founder of Khazad-dûm.

…awoke in Mount Gundabad some time between the awakening of the Elves and the Awakening of Men (Sil) … but when? Our entry says “Like the other Fathers of the Dwarves, Durin awoke during the Chaining of Melkor” … Does anyone know a confirming quote on that?

… died before the end of the Elder Days.

Durin awoke without a mate and travelled south until he discovered and developed Khazad-dûm. (HoME XII) I am assuming he gathered a following and a wife on his way south. Is there a source confirming that?

Any other verifiable info on Durin I would be great. :feedback:


PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Durin the Deathless
on: March 11, 2009 04:30
All that I have so far been able to find is that the dwarves crossed over the Blue Mountains and into Beleriand in the second age of the captivity of Melkor, but I can't find an exact reference as to when they initially awoke.
On page 301 of The Peoples of Middle-Earth we are told that the Dwarves were secretive in the early days and had little communication with the Elves, and also that the Elves only knew of two of the awakening sites for te Fathers of the Dwarves- Ered Lindon and Mount Gundabad.
I can only assume that as the Elves didn't know when the Dwarves awake, the date could not be recorded anywhere. There would be no way to determine a date before the first rising of the sun, so unless the Fathers of the Dwarves interacted with the Elves soon after they awoke, there is no way to determine when they awoke, in relation to any other events .
BerethEdhellen
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Post RE: Durin the Deathless
on: March 11, 2009 08:12
There is little to be gleaned from "Of Aule and Yavanna" in the Sil but there may be something that helps in this search.

However, in reading the above-mentioned, I had a sudden, most irreverent thought: Given the Dwarves were brought to life before the Elves, would that not make the Dwarves, in fact, the "Firstborn"? Sorry, just a random thought.
Life is good! Live it to the fullest. Love well those near and dear. "You cannot step into the same river twice, for the waters are ever flowing on ....." Heraclitus I Aear cân ven na mar
Merides
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Post RE: Durin the Deathless
on: March 11, 2009 09:26
Of Durin the Deathless:

It would appear from my research that the Dwarves may believe in Reincarnation.

Quote from Appendix A - III of RotK:
"There he [Durin] lived so long that he ws known far and wide as Durin the Deathless. Yet in the end he died before the Elder Days had passed, and his tomb was in Khazad-dum; but his line never failed, and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and their fate in the world."


Quote from A Guide to Tolkien by David Day:
"Durin I was the first and eldest of the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves who were conceived by Aule the Smith in the Ages of Darkness. ... Durin lived to such a great age that he was called Durin the Deathless. This name was also a reference to the belief that he would be reincarnated seven times as king of his peple, and each time he would take the name of Durin."


Durin I lived in the First age, Durin II in the eighth century of the Second, Durin III in the sixteenth century of the Second. Durin III was the first of the Dwarves to receive one of the Dwarven rings, according to A Guide to Tolkien. I have no information about Durin IV, or Durin V. Durin VI was the King of Moria, and lived from TA 1731 to TA 1980, when they released the Balrog.



On Bereth's question:

Another quote from A Guide to Tolkien:
"It is said that, once Aule had made the Dwarves, he secretly hid them from the other Valar and thought himself and them hidden as well from Iluvatar. Yet Iluvatar was aware of Aule's deed and judged that Aule's act was done without malice, and thus He sanctified the Dwarves. Yet He would not permit that this race should come forth before his chosen children, the Elves, who were to be the Firstborn. So, though the Dwarves were full-wrought, Aule took tehm and laid them deeply under stone, and in this darkness teh Seven Fathers of Dwarves slept for many Ages before the Stars were rekindled and before the Time of Awakening drew near."


I think the answer to your question, Bereth, is that Iluvatar makes the rules. He says the Elves are the Firstborn, therefore the Elves are Firstborn. I feel sorry for the Dwarves... kinda.

Can you tell I got a new book that I love? I'm amazed at the research David Day has put into this 275 page book.

Oh, something interesting I came across in my research- In the line of Durin, there is only one Dwarf-woman mentioned, in fact, the only Dwarf-woman ever named- Dis, the sister of Thorin Oakenshield. She was the youngest of three- Thorin, Frerin, and Dis. Dis was the mother of Fili and Kili. Just a neat little note.



[Edited on 3/11/2009 by Merides]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Durin the Deathless
on: March 12, 2009 08:02
Merides wrote:
from David Day: "It is said that, once Aule had made the Dwarves, he secretly hid them from the other Valar etc.
Yes. The full and touching story is in Sil. Ch2. “Of Aulë and Yavanna” My heart bleeds for Aulë when he offers to destroy what he has made. There is an immense air of compassion in this scene.
Oh, something interesting I came across in my research- In the line of Durin, there is only one Dwarf-woman mentioned, in fact, the only Dwarf-woman ever named- Dis, the sister of Thorin Oakenshield.
Yes again. She’s even in Durin’s family tree in LotR Appendix A. I always wish there was more about the dwarf women.

Thanks PB for your distilled information. I think you are right about the elves knowing little of the dwarves until they appeared in Beleriand. The person who submitted our Durin item for the encyclopedia stated categorically that the dwarves awoke during the first age of the chaining of Melkor, but if we can’t deduce that from ‘canon’ reference I shall have to edit it out. Anyway, I’ve been trying to put a few events in chronological order in case it can help us.

The chronology of the these items in “The Grey Annals” (HoME XI The War of the Jewels) was not substantially altered afterwards so … in Valian Years …

1050 – The Quendi Awake

1090 – Melkor Chained

1128 – The Teleri Cross the Ered Luin into Belerand, (last on the Great Journey)

1250 – Dwarves cross into Beleriand.

The first point this raises is that the Dwarves could have awoken any time after VY1050, so might have been around before Melkor was chained. (so I’ll edit the encyclo entry to reflect that).

Since two of the Dwarf Fathers awoke in the Ered Luin, and Durin in Gundabad, there must have been a lot of dwarves around during the time when the whole area was heaving with west-bound elves So “secretive” is an understatement for both elves and dwarves. Fascinating stuff..
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Durin the Deathless
on: November 06, 2009 01:59
Elthir, Lisa and other quotaholics

... this should be right up your street, so I've bumped it.

Feel free to have a quotathon on this one

Elthir
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Post RE: Durin the Deathless
on: November 06, 2009 04:26
Very generally speaking, JRRT tinkered with the Awakening of Men (Myths Transformed). But anyway, as for Dwarves, in work on the Later Quenta Silmarillion (see The War of the Jewels p. 210 for the details) CJRT comments:

'At the end of the insertion the chapter continues with 'Since they came in the days of the power of Melkor...' (p. 204), but concomitantly with the introduction of the new form of the legend, in which the Fathers of the Dwarves were laid to sleep until after the awakwening of the Elves and the imprisonment of Melkor, this was changed on LQ 1 to 'Since they were to come...'


CJRT then notes the earlier of the two texts of the inserted passage (again for the details on the texts, see the book itself, if possible), referring to some 'tentative and roughly-written passages'. One of them (e) includes:

'And Aule returned to Valinor and waited long as best he might. But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea.' JRRT


Jumping to Late Writings, Note 21 to Of Dwarves And Men (The Peoples of Middle-Earth): '... The 'deeps of time' do not refer (of course) to geological time -- of which only the Eldar had legends (...) They refer to legends of the Ages of Awakening and the arising of the Speaking Peoples: first the Elves, second the Dwarves (as they claimed), and third Men.'

And from Last Writings (The Peoples of Middle-Earth again):

This was notably the case in the race of the Longbeards whose ultimate forefather was called Durin, a name which was taken at intervals by one of his descendants, but by no others but those in a direct line of descent from Durin I. Durin I, eldest of the Fathers, 'awoke' far back in the First Age (it is supposed, soon after the awakening of Men), but in the Second Age several other Durins...'


Not intended to be a complete listing of relevant citations, but rather just what I found so far.
cirdaneth
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