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cirdaneth
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Post Did Thranduil sail?
on: May 17, 2009 08:21
Here is a summary of a thread from way back in 2003/4. As we are discussing Fading I thought it might be good to restart it.

Mithrellas asked: wouldn't Thranduil get tired of Middle-earth sometime in the Fourth Age and finally sail?

Nienna-of-the-Valar: there is no evidence either way so we don't really know...but my personal opinion was that he would have remained and his people would have been some of those to dwindle into a rustic folk of dell and cave. To me he just doesn't seem the type to leave Middle-earth,

Neneithel: I agree. Thranduil, unlike most of the Sindar, became very like the wood elves he ruled. Thranduil loved Mirkwood and I don't believe he would leave it. However, Tolkien never said one way or the other, so we can all assume whichever possibility we prefer.

Atalante_Star: I think it would depend on what happened to his wife. If she died, and therefore her fea would either be in the Halls of Mandos or reincarnated - and therefore pretty inaccessible to Thranduil in the Blessed Realm, I think he'd stay in Middle-earth.

However, if she had taken ship, then maybe he would have done so as well - to be reunited with your love is a pretty big draw

PotBellyHairyFoot: I've always taken it as a given that many elves stayed on in ME after the Third Age ended, and I've always thought, that as the King of the Woodland Elves, Thranduil would have no reason or desire for leaving.

Eressea: I doubt Thranduil ever went to Aman, mainly because he really seems to have turned "woodlandish" like the people he is ruling

As Potbelly stated, he was the King of the Woodland Realm, and as a Sindar I cannot help but believe, that he would feel some sort of responsibility for his "lesser" borthers, his people, and therefore stayed even if he was reluctant to do so. Simply to guide and rule the people.

Ithildin55: And I don’t think there is any evidence that Thranduil left Eryn Lasgalen. As for his sea-longing
“In the Third Age few of the Teleri were left, and they for the most part dwelt as lords among the East-elves in woodland realms far from the Sea, which nonetheless they longed for in their hearts. Of this kind were the Elves of Mirkwood, and of Lórien...” (Appendix on Languages, Peoples of Middle-earth, H-M, 1998, p74)
This implies that Thranduil would have experienced the sea-longing also. Since he may have lived in Lindon for a time, it is not unreasonable to believe that the sea-longing could have been awakened in him.

Tolkien never tells for sure whether Thranduil sailed or not, but my theory is that he stayed in Middle-earth and eventually faded. After the ruin of Doriath, I think that Oropher and Thranduil chose never to go into the West with the Noldor; that is why they moved so far from the sea to establish the Woodland Realm. Perhaps he had hoped in that way to "insulate" his family from the sea-longing?

I don’t think that all Elves sailed – ever. I think Tolkien said somewhere that one motivation for creating his mythology was to provide a backstory to explain the origins of the noble and powerful Eldar who eventually became reduced through time to the spritely fairies of legend.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Did Thranduil sail?
on: May 18, 2009 05:02
Let's review a bit;
Thranduil was the son of Oropher, who kept moving his people farther from contact with the other Elves of Middle-earth. Oropher also refused to accept leadership, armour and weaponry from Gill Galad in the War of the Last Alliance, and his comparatively primitively equipped people were slaughtered to the point that only a third of them survived. After Oropher's death in that War, Thranduil assumed the kingship of the Elves of Mirkwood.
Throughout the Third Age, the Elves of Mirkwood mostly kept themselves isolated from the other Elves, trading only with the Men of Laketown.
Thranduil, after the War of the Ring, met with Celeborn to work out the Eryn Lasgalen (formerly Mirkwood) boundaries between their two Kingdoms.
_______
I'll assume that Thranduil was likely to inherit his fathers desire to stay independent of the other Elves. He may also have harboured some resentment over the way his people were slaughtered in war.

All of the above indicates to me that Thranduil, as an isolationist, would have no desire to join the other Elves in Aman. His people, after the destruction of the One Ring, wouldn't see their lands and power diminish, which was a big reason behind the other Elves departing, for they weren't under te influence of a Ring. If anything, Thranduil's lands, would be in better shape after the loss of the evil influence of the One, and I see nothing that would make Thranduil, or his people, want to leave.
NellasTaralom
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Post RE: Did Thranduil sail?
on: May 18, 2009 11:45
His people, after the destruction of the One Ring, wouldn't see their lands and power diminish, which was a big reason behind the other Elves departing, for they weren't under te influence of a Ring. If anything, Thranduil's lands, would be in better shape after the loss of the evil influence of the One, and I see nothing that would make Thranduil, or his people, want to leave.


Indeed, wasn't Mirkwood renamed Greenwood the Great after the War? With Dol Guldor destroyed, the forest was cleansed of evil beings, and I'm assuming that would include the spider-children of Shelob that plagued Thorin's party in The Hobbit. No doubt the forest and the Wood-elves flourished for a long time after the War and before they faded, which is a happy thought.

they moved so far from the sea to establish the Woodland Realm. Perhaps he had hoped in that way to "insulate" his family from the sea-longing?


Most likely. I can only imagine how angry he must have been when Legolas (presumably his only child) came home after the War, declaring his great desire for the Sea and singing songs of Eressea. From Thranduil's perspective, departure across the Sea was probably the equivalent of death for his son.
Erucenindë
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Post RE: Did Thranduil sail?
on: May 19, 2009 05:22
I never actually thought about this before, but it is a good point.

After reading all the arguments, I don't think Thranduil sailed either. It just doesn't fit his character. As for the Mirkwood elves, I'm sure there were some who did sail, but others who stayed as well.

Eventually, all those that stayed faded away, not unlike Arwen, I would say.
MereChristian
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Post RE: Did Thranduil sail?
on: May 19, 2009 11:49
This is a great topic everyone.

I was always under the impression that all of the elves left Middle-Earth eventually. As the world became more corrupt as time has worn on, which is a common theme of Tolkien's, they would eventually have sailed off. Even if it took hundreds of years. That's my thoughts at least. Though all of you are so much more knowledgeable about all this stuff, that I feel kind of shy about posting. I hope my response is worthy of the type of knowledge that you all have displayed.

I bid you all adieu.
cirdaneth
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on: September 23, 2015 06:03
*bump
Elthir
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on: September 28, 2015 04:47
I have a pretty useless answer that hasn't been raised in the thread yet (I think). If Thranduil was Sindarin then he was Eldarin...

... and Appendix F, On Translation, notes that the Eldar "now" are gone, as in (or so I interpret it) left Middle-earth for Aman, by way of death perhaps, or sailing. So maybe in the 1950s, Tolkien (acting as translator)...

A) knew this from text not made available to the modern reader

B) guessed this because all the faded elves that had revealed themselves to his mind (which was at least possible) were not Eldarin, or knew it because some faded Elves knew this and told him

C) guessed this based on text not made available to the modern reader

D) this line cannot be so strongly pushed to include any and all of the Eldar, as in the same section it's stated that the Eldar were dark-haired save in the golden House of Finarfin, which is only (arguably) generally or mostly true, and allows for exceptions...

... noting that Thranduil himself was golden-haired in any case

E) something else

[Edited on 09/28/2015 by Elthir]
cirdaneth
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on: September 28, 2015 06:16
Thank you Elthir … so there is somebody still reading books forum.
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