Welcome Guest 

Register

Author Topic:
PotbellyHairyfoot
Grandpa Moderator
Posts: 2929
Send Message
Avatar
Post Quote of the week Aug 14/09 -Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
on: August 14, 2009 04:10
On Melkor suing for pardon, and having it granted by Manwe;

For Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it ... ...But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget. But they obeyed the judgment of Manwë; for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel


1) Manwë was completely innocent and made a mistake because he was incapable of seeing others as being different from him. Does that innocence make him unsuitable as a leader?

2) Tulkas and Ulmo didn't believe Melkor, yet they accepted their leader's decision. This is absolutely essential in many organizations with a clear chain of command and is the only way that our own police and military can function properly. Could Tulkas be considered the enforcement arm of the Ainur?

[Edited on 15/8/2009 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
oiotari
Alcarinquë of Varda
Posts: 787
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week Aug 14/09 -Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
on: August 14, 2009 04:43
1) Manwë was completely innocent and made a mistake because he was incapable of seeing others as being different from him. Does that innocence make him unsuitable as a leader?
No matter which of the Valar you choose, each will have some flaw or weakness that will lessen his/her ability to lead. So, while because of his innocence Manwe is not the "perfect" leader, I don't believe it makes him unsuitable as a leader, otherwise he would not have been assigned that place by Illuvatar
Sitara
Council Member
Posts: 8
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week Aug 14/09 -Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
on: August 16, 2009 12:01
1) Manwë was completely innocent and made a mistake because he was incapable of seeing others as being different from him. Does that innocence make him unsuitable as a leader?

In my opinion, whatever his reasons, Manwë has made then the right decision. Furthermore, I think Iluvatar permitted him to do it because it was the right choice. I'm not taking lightly what Melkor had done before his imprisonement, twisting Elves into Orcs and making a mockery of the creation, but still I believe that granting Melkor pardon when he asked for it, was the right decision. Of course, allowing him for so long to weave undisturbed his web about Aman is something entirely different, though.

Apart from being the Elder King, Manwë was also Melkor's brother in Eru's Thought, I'd like to add. It wasn't quite the same thing as for other Valar. As for him being unsuitable as a leader...there are some things one cannot learn but by experience. I cannot judge him too harsh, because I'm pretty sure he did that to himself after Melkor's "activity" had been revealed.

At any rate, Manwë has learnt his lesson in a harsh manner. Mastering the art of leadership doesn't come with the birth, not even for the Ainur.

2. Tulkas and Ulmo didn't believe Melkor, yet they accepted their leader's decision. This is absolutely essential in many organizations with a clear chain of command and is the only way that our own police and military can function properly. Could Tulkas be considered the enforcement arm of the Ainur?

Well, after all , when Earendil had come to Aman to plead in behalf of the two races, Namo voiced his disagreement rather loudly before accepting Manwe's decision. Did the same thing happen when Melkor was suing for pardon and at least three Valar were doubting his intentions, to say the least?
Yes, as it seems, both Tulkas and Orome could be considered the enforcement arm of the Ainur.
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week Aug 14/09 -Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
on: October 25, 2009 04:49
1. I am assuming that Manwe is not only innocent, but incorruptible and so represents a pure strain of the thought of Illuvatar. The loyalty he earns from the other Valar, and his own unswerving loyalty to Illuvatar make him the ideal leader. However ...

2. ... in conference with the others and consultation with Illuvatar, Manwe is quite capable of ordering tough measures. Therefore I would defiitely agree that Tulkas and Orome are the Enforcement Arm of the Valar.
Ilandir
Council Member
Posts: 475
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week Aug 14/09 -Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
on: October 28, 2009 08:41
1. I agree with all the above posts. Manwe had this 'innocence' flaw and had there been another Vala in his stead, he/she would have had some other flaw.

2. Definately. I've always seen Tulkas as the perfect match against Melkor (in strength not in cunningness and intelligence). I think he can be seen as the protector of the Vala and a strong point against evil.
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email