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Iavas87
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Post Elves Departing
on: December 27, 2009 12:39
This is something that I've been wondering about for a while, but I've found very little definitive explanation in the books, and most of that was contradictory. So, if anybody could clear this up for me, preferably with quotes or references, I would really appreciate it.

We all know that many Elves chose to depart to Valinor, with the first major exodus beginning with the opening of the way west after the defeat of Morgoth and the sinking of Beleriand at the end of the First Age, and another increase in the rate of departure occurring at the end of the Third Age.

What I'd like to know is - were all Elves welcome to depart West, or were only the Noldor exiles and their descendants welcomed back? That is, could all Sindar and Silvan Elves also depart if they so chose, or were Legolas and Cirdan exceptions? I suppose the Avari would not be an issue, as they were too tied to Middle-earth and never desired to go West in the first place.

My second question is - could the departing Elves eventually come to Valinor proper, or could they only travel as far as Tol Eressea? What about those Elves that died in Middle-earth and were given new hröar? Finally, did the Avari that died in Middle-earth have to live out the rest of their new lives in Aman if they were given new hröar?

I know some of these questions are unanswerable because Tolkien himself did not clarify, but I'd like to find out as much is known on the issue.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Elves Departing
on: December 27, 2009 05:16
I'll take try at some of those quesions.
I've always been of the opinion that most of the Elves that had never seen the Undying Lands, had no interest in leaving thier homes in Middle-earth. They didn't leave Middle-earth, back before the First Age, so why would they want to now? They would likely be welcomed, but saw no reason to go.
With the possible exception of special cases like Legolas, the Elves leaving were likely those that remembered their former lives in the West, or their descendants, especially the formerly exiled Noldor.

I know that Tol Eressea was set up as a home for the returning Elves after the destruction of Beleriand etc at the end of the First Aghe, but I cannot recall reading anything that said that they HAD to stay there.

As to leaving the Halls of Mandos, I only know of a very small number of elves ( well one for sure) that reanimated a body and came back to Middle-earth. I'm going have to reread The Peoples of Middle-earth to remind me of why.
Elthir
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Post RE: Elves Departing
on: December 27, 2009 06:27
(...) That is, could all Sindar and Silvan Elves also depart if they so chose, or were Legolas and Cirdan exceptions?


The Sindar and the Silvan Elves could depart over Sea -- one text that illustrates this is Amroth and Nimrodel (see below), although The Lord of the Rings itself generally notes that Elves from Lorien passed Over Sea from the South (the Elves of Lorien being mostly Silvan elves).

My second question is - could the departing Elves eventually come to Valinor proper, or could they only travel as far as Tol Eressea?


Interesting question! especially with respect to the Exiles. The following can be used for a sleep aid.


The Book of Lost Tales begun 1916-17, Eriol story:
'... refusal of the Gods to allow the Elves to dwell in Valinor. There is no reason to think that this ban rested only, or chiefly, on the Noldoli. The text, (3), does not refer specifically to the Gnomes in this connection; and the ban is surely to be related to 'the sorrow and wrath of the Gods' at the time of the March of the Elves (p. 253). Further, it is said in The Cottage of lost Play (I. 16) that Ingil son of Inwe returned to Tol Eressea with 'most of the fairest and the wisest, most of the merriest and the kindest, of all the Eldar, and that the town that he built there was named Koromas or 'The Resting of the Exiles of Kôr' (...) That some did return in the end to Valinor may be concluded from the words of Meril-I-Turinqi (I. 129) that Ingil, who built Kortirion, 'went long ago back to Valinor and is with Manwe'; but Tol Eressea remained the land of the fairies in the early conception, the Exiles of Kôr, Eldar and Gnomes, speaking both Eldarissa and Noldorissa.'

Christopher Tolkien, The History of Eriol or Elfwine The Book of Lost Tales II.


Remember in this conception Tol Eressea was to become England, and Elvish Kortirion to become Warwick.

Elfwine version (notes): 'of the Faring Forth and the Loss of Valinor' (1 Elfwine of England (narrative): fading companies linger, those that have not yet sailed to the Lonely Isle: '... or even to the Hill of Tûn upon the bay of Faery that washes the western shores of the kingdom of the Gods.' In this conception Eressea and England are distinct lands, and Tol Eressea seemed to be: 'remade in the likeness of his (Elfwine of England) own land, which the Elves had lost at the coming of Men.' The Book of Lost Tales II

The Earliest 'Silmarillion' c. 1926-30 'The Elves march to the Western shore, and begin to set sail from Leithien (Britain or England) for Valinor' (very compressed version) The Shaping of Middle-Earth

Qenta Noldorinwa 1930: 'Thence in many a fleet the survivors of the Gnomes and of the Western companies of the Dark-elves set sail into the West and came not again into the lands of weeping and of war (...) But in the West the Gnomes and Dark-elves rehabited for the most part the Lonely Isle, that looks both East and West (...) But some returned even unto Valinor, as all were free to do who willed;...' §18 from 'QII version' The Shaping of Middle-Earth

Annals of Beleriand mid 1930s to end of '37: 'In this year Fionwe departed and went back to Valinor with all his folk, and with them went most of the Gnomes that yet lived and the other Elves of Middle-earth' (highly compressed version) The Lost Road

Quenta Silmarillion mid 1930s to end of '37: 'Thence in many a fleet the survivors of the Gnomes, and of the companies of the Dark-elves of Doriath and Ossiriand, set sail into the West (...) And when they came into the West the Gnomes for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East (...) But some returned even to Valinor, as all were free to do who willed...' The Lost Road

This is the last extant version of this section of the Quenta Silmarillion proper. Tolkien made no cursory correction to this section later, nor would rewrite it in the years following the writing or publication of The Lord of the Rings. Christopher Tolkien's constructed version published in 1977 reads: '... and thence in many a fleet the Eldar set sail into the West (...) And when they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressea, the lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might come even to Valinor.'

Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age in existence by 1948: 'From the Grey Havens the Eldar ever an anon set sail (...) '... for by the mercy of the Valar the Firstborn could still follow the Straight Road and return, if they would, to their kindred in Eressea and Valinor beyond the encircling seas.' 1977 Silmarillion

Letter 131 probably 1951 states that the Exiles were not to dwell permanently in Valinor again, but on Eressea.

Letter 154 1954: contains the implication that the Eldar (and here the meaning seems to be Eldar = 'West-elves' in my opinion) should be able to pass West 'and so come to Eressea'.

1959 (or thereabouts) Author's note 4 on the commentary to the Athrabeth: 'The passing 'oversea' to Eressea (an isle within sight of Aman) was permitted to, and indeed urged upon, all Elves remaining in Middle-earth after the downfall of Morgoth in Angband.' Morgoth's Ring

All Elves? And 'all' to Eressea? hmmm.

Letter 297 (1967) states that the Exiles 'were allowed to return' and in a footnote it is said that Galadriel cannot go to Eressea.

1969 or later Amroth and Nimrodel: 'It is said that the grace that the Valar gave to us to pass over the Sea is granted now to any of those who made the Great Journey, even if they did not come in ages past to the shores and have not yet beheld the Blessed Land.' Amroth is speaking here; he is Sindarin in descent, Nimrodel is Silvan. Unfinished Tales

Letter 325 1971: 'The 'immortals' who were permitted to leave Middle-earth and seek Aman -- the undying lands of Valinor and Eressea, an Island assigned to the Eldar -- set sail in ships..'

This is not an exhaustive list. I know more references exist because I did not include a couple myself; but they were vague enough and general, and I was looking for something more specific to lengthen an already long post.

Iavas87
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Post RE: Elves Departing
on: December 28, 2009 09:50
Wow, Elthir! That is a great list. Thank you. I have, of course, looked at many of the sources you cite, but at different times far apart, and not all, so your summarization here truly helps form a more definitive picture. Unfortunately, I still lack some of the later volumes of HoME, so my sources are a bit limited.

I'm going to assume that the published works are most canonical. Likewise, of the unpublished miscellaneous facts that are not based on contradictions to (nor themselves contradict) the published stories, I would consider the later as more canonical than the earlier. Thus, I try to respect the ongoing mythopoeic process while ignoring Tolkien's later cosmology-revising musings (e.g. that the Earth was always round and its original flatness was nothing more than a Númenorean myth) because they would put much of the previous published material in question, leaving us in limbo.

After looking up all of sources you quoted that are available to me, particularly The Letters, I deduce the following:

• Avari were not extended the invitation to Valinor, and remained in Middle-earth until they faded.
• All of the Eldar were, at least by the end of the Third Age, invited to depart to Aman (excluding some of the chief actors in the Rebellion, of whom only Galadriel remained alive and was forgiven), but not all of them chose to.
+ I would suppose that those Silvan Elves with a mixed ancestry of Avari and one of the Eldar tribes (such as the Nandor) were given a one-time choice similar to that of the Peredhil, and could either depart as Eldar or remain as Avari, at their own prerogative.
• Those that did depart from Middle-earth were given permanent homes in Tol Eressëa, and though they could travel freely to Valinor, most were not welcome to dwell there indefinitely as could those who came there with the first Great Journey and never left.

This still leaves the question of those Elves who died and were given a new hröa. Lacking the later volumes of HoME, I am especially fuzzy on the whole process, but I understand that Tolkien's own vision of the matter was in flux. I assume that there is little hope in finding out for certain what happened to Avari after their fëar traveled to the Halls of Mandos. We know that some, at least, of the Eldar were given new hröar, but only Glorfindel was allowed to return to Middle-earth in his, so presumably most of those new hröar were then confined to Aman, whether Valinor or Tol Eressëa we know not. I do believe that it is somewhere written that Finrod later dwelt in Valinor with Amarië, which is one of the reasons that I believe some Exiles were allowed to dwell in Valinor proper, so I put the word "most" in that last bullet point, above. We also know that some Elves, such as Fëanor, remained in the Halls of Mandos until the end of time, but I presume that this was rare, as I remember reading (though, again, I can't recall or find where) that Elves felt incomplete without their hröar for long, and the Valar did not keep them so without need. I guess that this indefinite incorporeality was also the fate of some of the other more active players in Fëanor's Rebellion, who were not allowed to return to Aman until, like Galadriel, they were forgiven or, in the case of the deceased, cleansed their fëar through repentance.

I would love to find out more about the whole process, but it will be a while before I can get my hands on the volumes of HoME where it is discussed.

[Edited on 28/12/2009 by Iavas87]
Elthir
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Post RE: Elves Departing
on: December 29, 2009 05:05
(...) After looking up all of sources you quoted that are available to me, particularly The Letters, I deduce the following:

• Avari were not extended the invitation to Valinor, and remained in Middle-earth until they faded.


Tolkien seems to say so in letter 154 (this part not noted in my list above):

'But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves -- not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressea -- but so pass out of time and history, never to return.' JRRT, 1954, to Naomi Mitchison


But then he says 'all Elves' in the later note (commentary to the Athrabeth), and then again in Amroth and Nimrodel Amroth seems to imply that those who did not attempt the Great Journey cannot pass over Sea.

(...) • Those that did depart from Middle-earth were given permanent homes in Tol Eressëa, and though they could travel freely to Valinor, most were not welcome to dwell there indefinitely as could those who came there with the first Great Journey and never left.


This is an interesting matter in my opinion, but I'll reserve my thoughts here for another post.

This still leaves the question of those Elves who died and were given a new hröa. [the questions being] What about those Elves that died in Middle-earth and were given new hröar? Finally, did the Avari that died in Middle-earth have to live out the rest of their new lives in Aman if they were given new hröar?


As for sources, here I tend to use Morgoth's Ring (MR), and the late texts on Glorfindel (GI, GII).

According to MR (Laws and Customs, L&C) an Elf who had died could refuse the summons to Mandos. This leaves us with the Houseless, not all of whom are kindly or unstained by the Shadow, and the Lingerers, or faded Elves (faded in hroar, but these had not died and thus were distinct from the Houseless). Laws and Customs notes that the 'Re-born' report that in Mandos there are many elves, and among them many of the Alamanyar [see Umanyar, and MR p. 170-1] but that there is in the Halls of Waiting little mingling or communing of kind with kind, or of any one fea with another.

One would assume some Avarin fear came to Mandos, and could be 're-born', but it might be noted that 're-born' here refers to being born again as an Elf-child. Tolkien would also write a text Reincarnation of Elves in which he would abandon the notion of Elves being re-born as children, but CJRT notes that Tolkien's commentary to the Athrabeth followed Reincarnation of Elves -- so jumping first to author's note 3 to the Commentary:

Here it's noted again that the houseless fear were summoned, not brought, to Mandos (this could be refused), and when re-housed:

'They 'normally remained in Aman'. Simply because they were, when re-housed, again in actual physical bodies, and return to Middle-earth was therefore very difficult and perilous. Also during the period of the exile of the Noldor the Valar had for the time being cut all communications (by physical means) between Aman and Middle-earth.' JRRT, note 3


In Reincarnation of Elves, Tolkien had written: 'The re-housed fea will normally remain in Aman. Only in very exceptional cases, as Beren and Luthien, will they be transported back to middle-earth. ... Hence death in Middle-earth had much of the same sort of sorrow and sunderance for Elves and Men.' (similar comments to this appear in parts of note 3 as well).

That said, moving to the very late Glorfindel texts (The Peoples Of Middle-Earth), Glorfindel I simply notes: 'When they were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or return to Middle-earth if their home had been there.' And concerning Glorfindel's return to Middle-earth...

'This must probably have occurred before the end of the Second Age, and the 'Change of the World' and the Drowning of Numenor, after which no living embodied creature, 'humane' or of lesser kinds, could return from the Blessed Realm which had been 'removed from the Circles of the World'. JRRT, Glorfindel II


Compare to Tolkien's letter (above) '... but so pass out of time and history, never to return.' I'm not sure how much Tolkien truly considered the Avari in all this, but again, according to the Glorfindel texts with respect to Elves in general: 'It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But that restoration could be delayed by Manwe, if the fea while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.' (GII)

According to these later sources, it seems that, generally speaking, Elves could return to Middle-earth if they decided to (after considering the difficulty Tolkien notes above, I guess), although not at all times in any case, especially not normally after the Change of the World.

Anyway, again this doesn't pretend to be exhaustive with respect to everything that touches upon the matter!
Iavas87
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Post RE: Elves Departing
on: December 29, 2009 08:56
Thank you again, Elthir. That was very enlightening, especially for one such as myself, who has not had access to Morgoth's Ring and the 'Glorfindel texts'.

Taking your citations into account, I would add to my bullet points that:

• Elves that died in Middle-earth could choose to travel to Mandos or choose to remain Houseless. The former choice would mean that they had to face their decisions and atone for them, but could later be rehoused. The latter choice would mean that they continued existing in Middle-earth in a faded, immaterial sort of way for the remaining ages of the world, though this was against the natural order and generally discouraged.
• Elves that were rehoused arrived in Aman, but up until the Changing of the World at the end of the Second Age, they had the option to take the long and difficult trip back to Middle-earth. Some, such as Beren & Lúthien and Glorfindel were aided in the trip back East by the Valar because it suited their purposes.
• Avari also arrived in Mandos, though they were less likely to accept the summons, and could be rehoused, but for them it was likely to be a permanent parting from their loved ones on Middle-earth, especially after the Changing of the World, unless they too died and were rehoused in Aman.

I keep mentioning that being Houseless goes against Ilúvatar's designs and the 'natural order' because I seem to remember reading that somewhere. If this is wrong, please do correct me.

As for the "all Elves" problem, I would argue that Tolkien used the word "Elves" to denote various groups at different times. At times he meant all Quendi, and at others he meant only the Eldar (i.e. the non-Avari Western Elves that undertook the Great Journey, whether they actually made it to Aman or not). Thus, taking into especial account the quote from Unfinished Tales, I would say that only those that initially accepted the invitation of the Valar from Cuiviénen were later given the option to physically depart from Middle-earth.

This is an interesting matter in my opinion, but I'll reserve my thoughts here for another post.


I'd love to hear them.
Elthir
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Post RE: Elves Departing
on: December 29, 2009 11:28
Letter 131 was written to Milton Waldman -- and here JRRT is explaining his unpublished tales with hope of getting them in print along with The Lord of the Rings. I sometimes wonder if any differences between what existed in the Silmarillion as it stood, and what Tolkien explained to Waldman in his letter, are due to revision, or to memory perhaps (although of course it could be said that even if Tolkien had remembered something incorrectly the act of writing the letter constituted an approval of any variations).

Anyway, to my mind the Silmarillion as it stood seems rather to say that even the Exiles could live permanently in Valinor if desired. Also, Maglor casts himself into the Sea according to this letter, for another example, although this idea will reappear later in Tolkien's poetry.

The citations (at least the ones I could find) that were written after this letter do appear to focus on Eressea as well. But yet by themselves do they necessarily prohibit going beyond Eressea? even the 1930s Silmarillion carries an arguable 'focus' on Eressea, in that the Gnomes for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, but...

'But some returned even to Valinor, as all were free to do who willed; and there the Gnomes were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.'

Quenta Silmarillion section 27, The Lost Road


Still, Tolkien was quite specific concerning the Noldor in his letter to Waldman -- in any case it's interesting how an author's letters can affect the imagined Secondary World.

JRRT did make some later alterations to the end of Quenta Silmarillion, even one to section 26 -- but CJRT notes (The War of the Jewels) that these alterations need not equal an approval of content of the whole end of Quenta Silmarillion.

[Edited on 30/12/2009 by Elthir]
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