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Lord_Sauron
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Post Beren and Luthien
on: January 11, 2010 01:50
i just reread the story of Beren and luthien and just wonder what if aragon had have died fighting sauron and arwen died of grief do you think mandos along with manwe would show them pity and raise aragon and arwen from the dead so they could both live together as mortals. Just like what happened to beren and luthien

[Edited on 11/1/2010 by Lord_Sauron]
glamdring22
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Post RE: Beren and Luthien
on: January 11, 2010 12:58
I think they might have been pitied my Mandos like Beren and Luthien...at least I'd like to think they would have been
HannaofElves
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Post RE: Beren and Luthien
on: April 09, 2010 03:35
I don't quite know about that, because of Aragorn's bad family history (Numenor, when they rebelled against the Valar). They might, since he tried to make everything right, but there still is that chance, you know, with the Valar it's hard to tell....
Taraisilwèn
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Post RE: Beren and Luthien
on: April 10, 2010 01:30
But because of Luthien (to make a long story short...) Arwen had a choice between mortality and immortality. Doesn't that mean she could have chosen mortality and gone wherever humans go when they die, instead of staying in Mandos?
Ooor, would she only been given that choice if she didn't die of grief but waited until elrond sailed west?
Taraisilwèn
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Post RE: Beren and Luthien
on: April 10, 2010 01:39
Sorry, forget what I said. I noticed that the question was whether the Valar would bring them back to life or not.
My mistake
Archaic_Elf
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Post RE: Beren and Luthien
on: June 22, 2010 07:13
Luthien would come back to life, but I doubt Aragorn would get another chance. It would hurt the significance of the story of Beren if someone else were given a second chance to live again...just fall for an elf and you'll get two lives (to put it bluntly).

Beren and Luthien were almost like Orpheus and Eurydice, where Orpheus literally traveled to the underworld in an attempt to bring back his wife. Hades agreed to release her, but Orpheus didn't follow the rule in order to get her out and Eurydice was sent back to the underworld. Beren, in much the same way, went to Angband, the most terrible place in the world, in order to steal a silmaril and thereby claim his bride.

Aragorn did some amazingly heroic things, but Beren performed his action solely for the sake of love. Beren, in turn, was given a second chance at life because of love. Aragorn's love story isn't anywhere near as significant as that of Beren and Luthien's. Not that I'm trying to criticize Aragorn in any way, but Aragorn's love story isn't touched upon very much in the LOTR.

Aragorn was a hero much like Isildur and many others before him, but he wouldn't come back to life for the sake of his love for Arwen. It wouldn't seem like a good enough reason for him to get such a reward.
tarcolan
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Post RE: Beren and Luthien
on: July 15, 2010 07:02
I agree with AI. Aragorn was not Beren, although he was also driven by fate. Arwen chose to be mortal in Middle Earth and passed her place in Valinor to Frodo, or so it would seem, so there is no doubting that she was totally driven by her love for Aragorn, but he was also involved with the fate of his people, despite his love for Arwen. Beren no longer had such worries, and Luthien was all to him, so it's a very different kettle of bicycles.
Also the older story was intricately bound up with the Silmaril story and the Curse of Mandos, not so A&A
What is certain is that that line will never fail, which is quite re-assuring.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Beren and Luthien
on: January 07, 2011 05:16
Yes Tarcolan, there's an interesting contrast here. Aragorn actually had to put his personal love on hold and be driven by his love for the greater good of Middle Earth ... and not just his own people either. Arwen, I believe, was also fully aware that her love of him was tied up with global destiny.

Beren and Luthien appear to be driven by personal considerations, but it's hard to tell, and when I look more closely they are both being driven by something outside themselves, of which Luthien may have been vaguely aware. Her mother certainly knew while her father was in denial. Another interesting contrast.
Cressida
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Post RE: Beren and Luthien
on: January 20, 2011 04:57
I don't think the Valar would have raised Aragorn and Arwen either. There's this pattern I've noticed in Tolkien where things repeat from Age to Age and society to society, but diminishing each time. Although Arwen is like Lúthien in looks, she reflects this diminishment; she's half-elf, half-human instead of half-elf, half-maia, and she's the Evenstar instead of the Morning Star.

If Tolkien had wanted to mirror that part of Beren and Lúthien's story with Aragorn and Arwen, I think he'd have done something that wasn't literally the two of them being brought back from the dead, but echoed it in some way. For example, maybe Aragorn would have been affected by the Black Breath and Arwen would have had to bring him back from that shadow. Or something like that.
cirdaneth
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on: March 24, 2014 01:27
* bump
lizandroll_the_troll
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on: October 09, 2015 07:38
I have just finished reading "Of Beren and Luthien" again and am awestruck. I am amazed with the power of this chapter in Tolkien's writing and the way it holds together so many threads throughout all of the stories, characters, and their perceptions and motivations. Although we compare this work with Orpheus and Eurydice, I think the tale should be recognized as a brilliant, maybe "the brilliant", example of Tolkien's unique ability to construct an expansive yet compelling narrative.

Also, it makes me curious to review his other "love stories." By my memory, none were so exquisite, explored, or transformative even though many of them were written later than "Of Beren and Luthien."

What are some possible reasons? Could this be because other stories were driven by different circumstances? Or might he have believed that "this was a work which could only be completed once" (to paraphrase the theme...).
Gandolorin
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on: October 09, 2015 08:17
The story of Beren and Lúthien was the most personal story and closest to JRRT's heart. Just this simple fact: on their gravestone, below Edith's name you find "Luthien", and Below John Ronald's name you find "Beren". 'Nuff said.
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Arveleg
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on: December 09, 2016 11:17
It will be interesting to read this new book coming out in 2017.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
Gandolorin
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on: December 10, 2016 06:58
Arveleg said:It will be interesting to read this new book coming out in 2017.

Yes, because in contrast to The Children of Hurin, there is much less (at least in UT and HoME) told about Beren & Luthien. Lays of Beleriand of course has poetic versions of both tales ... hold the phone ... ehm ... OK, The Lay Of The Children Of Húrin about 100 pages, The Lay Of Leithian about 200 total, 150 apparently written in verse. Perhaps something along the line of JRRT's Beowulf, in the original Anglo-Saxon alliterative verse, translated by him into prose. Canto XIV of Leithian is titled (unofficially?) Escape From Angband. I guess: wait and see.
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