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Lord_Sauron
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Post Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: February 18, 2010 08:09
i know during the lord of the rings Denethor favoured and loved Boromir more than Faramir. However though as i understand that during the book Denethor had a plantir and his mind was also taken by Sauron will, do you think Sauron made Denethor believe that if Boromir was sent to Rivendell he would take the one ring back to him, and if Faramir went to Rivendell instead he would claim the ring for himself instead of giving it to Denethor. I assume the must have been a time when Denethor did love Faramir as he loved Boromir
Iavas87
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: February 19, 2010 10:52
Denethor had more right to use the palantiri than did Sauron, so even though Sauron's will was greater, Denethor had more power over the seeing stones. Thus, Sauron could not directly influence nor deceive Denethor. The way he "took his will" was by showing him only that part of the truth that he wanted him to see - namely, the size of his vast armies, so that the war effort would seem futile. I highly doubt that JRRT intended for Sauron to have been directly responsible Denethor's complicated relationships with his sons, nor for his choice of which one to send to Imladris.
Lord_Sauron
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: February 19, 2010 05:28
Yeah i guess you are right
ElfofCave
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: February 20, 2010 05:06
I agree with what Iavas87 just said.

But I will like to add that you seem to mix up the book-verse with the movie-verse.

In the movies Elrond ofiicially calls for a council and Denethor sends Boromir to attend. In the books, however, the reason that Boromir journeys to Imladris is because of a dream first Faramir and later himself has had:

"In that dream I thought the eastern sky grew dark and there was a growing thunder, but in the West a pale light lingered, and out of it I heard a voice, remote but clear, crying:
Seek for the Sword that was broken:
In Imladris it dwells;
There shall be counsels taken
Stronger than Morgul-spells.
There shall be shown a token
That Doom is near at hand,
For Isildur's Bane shall waken,
And the Halfling forth shall stand."
The Fellowship of the Ring: "The Council of Elrond"


Faramir wants to set out for Imladris himself to see if anything can be learned that will aid Gondor, but Boromir takes the task upon himself, and to this Denethor only reluctantly gives his consent.
Lord_Sauron
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: February 20, 2010 11:06
Lisa_gk i seriously forgot about Boromirs dream. Thanks for reminding me.

[Edited on 21/2/2010 by Lord_Sauron]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: February 25, 2010 07:36
In Tolkien's Notes on W H Auden's review of RotK, (Letters #183) Tolkien says that Denethor had come to see his role as purely poitical. i.e. to preserve the polity of Gondor against another potentate who had become stronger. His motive contained no ideal of good over evil. That is why he distrusted Faramir.

Boromir, of course, was man who valued strength over 'right' but realised his error at his death, as shown at the Council of Elrond and later at Amon Hen. It seems that Denethor did not hate Faramir, but did not trust him to claim the Ring.
Faramira
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: August 16, 2010 10:22
No, Denethor didn't hate Faramir. I think, Denethor disliked the friendship of Faramir and Mithrandir, and Faramir's big interest for books and the history of Gondor. This was the reason, Denethor thought, Faramir wasn't a brave warrior. But we know, that Faramir was a big hero.
Cressida
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: October 11, 2010 07:23
I think Denethor loved Faramir very much. However, I think they had a lot of friction due to their different priorities, while Denethor and Boromir worked together like a well-oiled machine. That's why it was easy for Denethor to be angry with Faramir and forget that he loved him...until it was (apparently) too late, and then Denethor was stricken with terrible remorse.
tarcolan
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: October 12, 2010 07:20
There is a suggestion somewhere that Denethor saw his late wife in Faramir, and resented him for this. Denethor may also have resented Faramir for being the one to have the prophetic dream, not his favourite son. He probably resented Boromir's insistence on going to Imladris but didn't want to stop him, turning his frustration against Faramir instead. I think Gandalf mentions the fact that Faramir is more like Denethor which would also bother him, as he believed Boromir was more in his image. Either way it begs the question, what if Faramir had gone? Yes it's me again with my annoying 'what ifs', this one being in another thread. Go on, have a try.
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Cressida
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: October 18, 2010 04:28
There is a suggestion somewhere that Denethor saw his late wife in Faramir, and resented him for this.


That's fanon. You can infer from the Appendix that Faramir resembles Finduilas in some important ways, but the book doesn't actually say anywhere that Denethor disliked or resented those resemblances.

Denethor may also have resented Faramir for being the one to have the prophetic dream, not his favourite son.


Again, fanon or speculation. It's equally possible that Denethor would have been relieved that it was Faramir who had the "sword that was broken" dream, as he would be more easily spared than Boromir, the Captain-General of Gondor's armies.

He probably resented Boromir's insistence on going to Imladris but didn't want to stop him, turning his frustration against Faramir instead.


Now, that seems very likely to me. Boromir mentions at the Council of Elrond that Denethor did not want to let him go.

I think Gandalf mentions the fact that Faramir is more like Denethor which would also bother him, as he believed Boromir was more in his image.


Gandalf does mention that Faramir is more like Denethor, but I think Denethor knew that. We're told in the Appendix that Faramir and Denethor are equal in their abilities to "read the hearts of men"--and Faramir is quite good at it, as demonstrated by his encounter with Frodo.

Either way it begs the question, what if Faramir had gone? Yes it's me again with my annoying 'what ifs', this one being in another thread. Go on, have a try.


It would be a totally different book, and I'm not saying that just to be flip. Looking at the movies made me realize how tightly connected all the parts of the story are. Pull one little thread and a bunch of other threads that didn't even look like they were connected come loose as well.

Just on the subject of Denethor's relationship with Faramir, though: if Faramir had gone north, he'd have met Aragorn first out of his family. He would have wanted some evidence of Aragorn's claim to the throne before accepting him, but a little discussion with Gandalf and Elrond, plus a look at the tokens Aragorn carried, would probably have convinced him. So my guess is that he would have been convinced of Aragorn's claim, which would have led to interesting consequences when they returned to Gondor ... and it certainly would have led to more friction with Denethor, who already didn't like the fact that Faramir hung out with Gandalf.

[Edited on 18/10/2010 by Cressida]
tarcolan
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: October 18, 2010 09:56
equal in their abilities to "read the hearts of men"
Thanks Cressida I'd forgotten that bit, and it means Denethor knew Boromir's flaw so maybe he feared for him as well.
how tightly connected all the parts of the story are.
It's just fun to investigate that maze.
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pv
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: October 18, 2010 07:06
I know during the lord of the rings Denethor favoured and loved Boromir more than Faramir


Tolkien understood very well the parental urge to influence & be a mentor to your children.

The difference between Boromir & Faramir lies in the fact that one accepted his father as a mentor, and the other did not!

Boromir was more a man of action than a deep thinker, and therefore accepted his father's views without question. Faramir on the other hand thought for himself, and began to be increasingly influenced by Gandalf. Denethor was hurt to see that his influence over his son was on the wane, and being Denethor, expressed this in an inapproptiate manner.
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evenstar7
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: February 13, 2011 09:15
I agree 100% ^
Nrogara
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: February 24, 2011 10:18
Wow... I never thought about all this stuff... But can someone please refresh my memory? I've forgotten which of the brothers is older.
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LOTR_obsessed_loony
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: February 24, 2011 10:52
Boromir is older by 5 years.
"...Though thereafter we may walk in the shadows, I will not go forth as a thief in the night." – Boromir, FotR, The Ring Goes South Image Image Image Image Image
Nrogara
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: February 25, 2011 10:28
Thanks! Wow, 5 years...
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Servant_of_Sauron
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Post RE: Did Denethor really hate Faramir?
on: June 14, 2011 09:30
I don't think that Denethor truly hated Faramir. It is clear, however, that he was playing favorites. It also appears that he was not terribly sound of mind, and the fright of the apparent doom that was swiftly approaching from Mordor may have clouded his judgement.
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