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Lord_Sauron
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Post Did Sauron really want Morgoth out of the way?
on: May 19, 2010 09:54
I know that Sauron would have a lot of respect towards Melkor being his master, so i know this may sound like a stupid question, is it possible that Sauron wanted Melker thrown in the void so he can rise to power and have no master, i ask this because it seems after Beren and Luthien defeat Sauron he hides and plays no part in the rest of the book was he hiding from Morgoths wrath or bidding his time
Dwarflord
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Post RE: Did Sauron really want Morgoth out of the way?
on: May 20, 2010 12:19
That's a good one, Lord_Sauron!

I was recently listening to the Silmarillion audiobook, and this question crossed my mind too.

On one hand we know, that Melkor totally enslaved his thralls, and even when they weren't in his presence anymore, he had power over them. On the other hand Sauron is said to be his most powerfull servant, with extraordinary powers.

After his defeat by Huan, Sauron escapes and hides. We know that he wanted to capture Luthien, because it would be a great gift to Melkor - he was always thinking of his master.
I do not think he was capable of thinking of himself, taking his time, so that when Melkor was gone, he would rise as the Dark Lord. If I remember correctly, Sauron wanted to return to the West after the Great Battle, but then changed his mind, when he felt humiliated.

Maybe when Melkor was gone, Sauron "naturally" filled the void, left after the Dark Lord - in a way it was his destiny, for there was no other, that could even try to take Melkor's place. He only did it, once his master was gone, far beyond rescue.
Ithildinel
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Post RE: Did Sauron really want Morgoth out of the way?
on: May 20, 2010 10:33
Heh. An interesting question.
For some reason, I have always thought that Sauron absolutely idolized Melkor. He was the one who beguiled him to the 'dark side' in the first place, probably promising him worlds and stars. And as Sauron was obviously an useful servant, I daresay that Morgoth made sure he was content with in his service. After all, Melkor was much more powerful than Sauron ever hoped to be. (At the time, at least.) He was probably convinced he is better of as Morgoth's first lieutnant than trying to overthrow him and make a new kingdom of his own. Of course, this didn't help him much in the end, and his admiration was quick to decrease, once Morgoth was in chains. But while I doubt Sauron would have ever bothered to try to free him, it was still Melkor's work he was trying to carry on. Remember him in Numenor? Unfortunately I don't have an English copy of Silmarillion, so I can't give any quotes, but examples are not hard to find.
My point being, while Sauron admired Melkor to point of worshiping him, in the end it is your own skin that is closest to you. If it wasn't, he would not have ended up with Melkor in first place.
Archaic_Elf
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Post RE: Did Sauron really want Morgoth out of the way?
on: June 22, 2010 06:53
Remember him in Numenor? Unfortunately I don't have an English copy of Silmarillion, so I can't give any quotes, but examples are not hard to find.
My point being, while Sauron admired Melkor to point of worshiping him, in the end it is your own skin that is closest to you. If it wasn't, he would not have ended up with Melkor in first place.


I remember reading that Sauron was trying to get the people of Numenor to worship Morgoth. It's towards the end of the section on the sinking of Numenor in the Silmarillion.

Ar-Pharazon, the last king of Numenor before the isle sank, was particularly led to do this by Sauron. I think the goal was to achieve immortality, and Ar-Pharazon even made human sacrifices. (I'm reading this on a Tolkien encyclopedia website since I don't have the book in hand).

With this in mind, I would say that Sauron did not hold any real malice towards his mentor Morgoth. He still seemed to respect Morgoth and attempted to carry out his goal. I imagine that Sauron would have had the Numenoreans attempt to free Morgoth if they had successfully raided the land of Aman and even held the elves as captives.

[Edited on 22/6/2010 by Archaic_Elf]
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Did Sauron really want Morgoth out of the way?
on: June 23, 2010 06:53
Ar-Pharazon and his people were buried in Aman, until the Last battle. Sauron had to have an idea of what would happen to them once they stepped ashore, so instead of just getting them to go to Aman as a way of seeking revenge for their role in the First Age, he may have been also recruiting them as troops to help his Master in the Final battle
Ilandir
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Post RE: Did Sauron really want Morgoth out of the way?
on: June 23, 2010 07:17
Ar-Pharazon and his people were buried in Aman, until the Last battle. Sauron had to have an idea of what would happen to them once they stepped ashore, so instead of just getting them to go to Aman as a way of seeking revenge for their role in the First Age, he may have been also recruiting them as troops to help his Master in the Final battle


But didn't Ar-Pharazon and his army fight against Morgoth in the Final Battle? Wouldn't that have backfired for Sauron? Or am I mistaken?
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Ithildinel
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Post RE: Did Sauron really want Morgoth out of the way?
on: June 23, 2010 07:50
But didn't Ar-Pharazon and his army fight against Morgoth in the Final Battle? Wouldn't that have backfired for Sauron? Or am I mistaken?


That's what I thought as well. For some reason, I really doubt that Sauron knew Valars would put Numenoreans away for the Final battle. He probably just expected them to kill them off (hopefully after they have managed to cause a bit of trouble, both to elves and valars) It seems improbable, though that he hoped Numenoreans could actually overthrow valars. So I think the revenge was exatly what it was - a revenge. Watch your enemies to kill each other and what not.
tarcolan
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Post RE: Did Sauron really want Morgoth out of the way?
on: July 13, 2010 09:12
There seems to be some confusion here. Melkor's Final Battle was at the end of the first age, when the Valar (wimps) finally decide to act. As far as Sauron is concerned, he was riddled with malice like his Master and had no feelings of love, respect or devotion in that sense. You can be sure that, had he had the opportunity, Sauron would have betrayed Melkor if it meant he could be top dog. He was only a Maia, not one of the Valar, and knew he couldn't beat them. His best bet was to serve Melkor.

As to the Numenor problem, the only surprise for Sauron was that the Valar destroyed the whole place. Pride blinded him, but it was the human curse, the fear of death, that drove Ar-Pharazon and led to the destruction of Atalante.
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Ilandir
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Post RE: Did Sauron really want Morgoth out of the way?
on: July 14, 2010 04:26
Melkor's Final Battle was at the end of the first age

Pb was referring to the Dagor Dagorath the final battle, not the one at the end of the first age - when the world will be destroyed and rebuilt - during the Second Music of the Ainur.
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tarcolan
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Post RE: Did Sauron really want Morgoth out of the way?
on: July 14, 2010 06:15
Thanks Ilandir. There is some confusion- mine. I have only read the Silmarillion and trilogy so bear with me. I assumed Melkor was locked in the void for good so I doubted he'd be let back for the battle at the End Of Days. Sauron could turn up any time. Help please. It's just that you talk of this battle in the past tense and only the Valar would be able to do that. You're not one are you?
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Ilandir
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Post RE: Did Sauron really want Morgoth out of the way?
on: July 14, 2010 06:22
It's just that you talk of this battle in the past tense and only the Valar would be able to do that.

Talking in the past tense because it's something I've read from the books ...

You're not one are you?

Unfortunately, no!
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