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bootsgrandma
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Post Gandalf's Words to the Balrog in FotR
on: October 07, 2010 05:41
"I am the servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you! Flame of Udun!"

I have several questions about the above passage.

First, what is meant by "secret fire"?

Secondly, what is meant by "wielder of the flame of Anor"?

Lastly, what is mean by "dark fire"?
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Gandalf's Words to the Balrog in FotR
on: October 08, 2010 12:57
The 'Secret Fire' or 'Flame of Anor' is probably best considered as the creative force of Iluvatar.
Although the Balrog is a creature of fire, it's not the same as that Gandalf claims to yield. ' Dark fire', or 'Flame of Udun' refers to the Balrog being a servant of Morgoth, who searched for the creative force ( secret fire ) early on in 'The Silmarillion', but was unsuccessful in finding it. That's why Morgoth was unable to create life and was only able to twist that which was already alive. Udun was another name for Morgoth's fortress of Utumno
Gandalf is more or less saying that he is a true servant of Iluvatar, while the Balrog is merely a servant of Morgoth
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Gandalf's Words to the Balrog in FotR
on: October 08, 2010 01:11
The "secret fire" can perhaps be best described as the divine power that keeps up life; it was created and hidden by Eru, the Creator God. The flame of Anor can mean very much the same thing; Gandalf states that he is connected to the fire/power of life/Eru. The "dark fire" is the destroying kind of fire that the balrog uses; it was corrupted by Morgoth, the first Dark Lord, whose servant the balrog originally was. (Eru and Morgoth are presented in the Silmarillion, in case you have only read the LOTR.)
tarcolan
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Post RE: Gandalf's Words to the Balrog in FotR
on: October 10, 2010 04:42
I always thought Anor referred to the sun, as in Minas Anor, and that its power derived from Laurelin, as it's made from a fruit of that tree. I thought Gandalf had access to this power as he was Keeper of the Ring of Fire. I also thought Udun was a general term for Hell. The area south of the Morannon is also called Udun. Any thoughts on this anyone?
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Gandalf's Words to the Balrog in FotR
on: October 11, 2010 12:39
According to the Quenya-English wordlist on Ardalambion:

Utumno (stem *Utumnu-), place-name, the first great stronghold of Melkor in the North (SA:tum, TUB) . The etymology apparently has something to do with "very deep" or "very hidden"; the phrase "Utumno the Deep-hidden" in MR:67 may include a rough translation of the name. This later source derives the name from a root meaning "cover over, hide", whereas in Etym it was derived from the root TUB having to do with low-lying things. Whether the primitive form is ¤ Utubnu as in Etym ( TUB ) or ¤ Utupnu as in MR:69, the stem-form would be *Utumnu-.


Udûn is the Sindarin form of the name. So, it isn't exactly "Hell", but an evil place deep underground.
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