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Lord_Sauron
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Post Against the making of the rings
on: January 19, 2011 03:37
was Elrond and Galadriel totally against the elven smiths in forging the rings of power. I ask this because when it came time they didn't refuse to take them but gladly used them. I know that they used their rings to protect their people although the elves were good i wonder did they also use the rings to dominate their people. If so isn't that hypercritical of them seeing that they were against Sauron and his quest to dominate.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Against the making of the rings
on: January 20, 2011 03:17
Galadriel saw through Sauron's fair disguise that fooled all the other elves of Eregion, but she didn't oppose to the forging of the three Elven rings, or using them - after all, they were made by Celebrimbor alone, without any "help" from Sauron/Annatar, and so were untainted by Sauron's desire to dominate. Elrond wasn't even in Eregion at the time the rings were forged, he lived in Lindon then.

Also remember that, while Sauron had the One Ring in his possession, the elves couldn't even wear the Three, otherwise they would have been discovered. On the Third Age, after Sauron was temporarily gone, it was most important to the elves to protect and keep up their own realms and delay the imminent fading, not to dominate anyone. Even Galadriel, who in her youth had dreamed of ruling her own realm like her brothers and cousins, was wise enough to refuse the One Ring when she was offered it...
Elthir
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Post RE: Against the making of the rings
on: January 20, 2011 05:04
Galadriel saw through Sauron's fair disguise that fooled all the other elves of Eregion, but she didn't oppose to the forging of the three Elven rings, or using them - (...)


According to Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn (where it's noted that Galadriel scorned Annatar) Galadriel had been ousted from power in Eregion (between 1350-1400) and arguably fled to Lindorinand before the making of the Rings of Power (c. 1500, Appendix B)

That said, Tolkien also had a somewhat difficult question to answer in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (noted by Christopher Tolkien): why did Galadriel 'scorn' Annatar? and if she perceived his true nature (as the reason), why was Sauron seemingly still allowed in Eregion? especially when in this conception Galadriel was co-founder and co-ruler (with Celeborn) of Eregion.

My answer to this second point is external. I believe Tolkien revised this idea when he wrote and published (for the second edition in the 1960s) that Celebrimbor -- now a Feanorean -- was Lord of Eregion. Though, if so, we are not given an 'updated' account as to Galadriel's possible reactions to Annatar.

This works better in my opinion: Gil-galad had already rejected Sauron and he was Galadriel's 'grand-nephew' as well, thus a Finarfinian. However if Tolkien puts Celebrimbor in charge of Eregion, not only does he side-step the question (in enough measure I think) of why Galadriel seemingly allowed Annatar in, but a Feanorean is now at the heart of Sauron's seduction, and thus Eregion's fall.



[Edited on 20/1/2011 by Elthir]
Lord_Sauron
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Post RE: Against the making of the rings
on: January 24, 2011 07:16
I know that Sauron did not touch the three elven rings, so what stopped the the elves from wearing them was it because even though Sauron did not handle them he could have still controlled them via his own ring thus controlling the elves
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Against the making of the rings
on: January 25, 2011 12:58
Galadriel didn't trust Annatar, for reasons that were not disclosed, and I cannot see her not passing her wishes on to her son-in-law Elrond. The Gwaith-i-Mirdain may have been fooled more by their strong desire to learn what Annatar had to teach them.
When Sauron forged the One the wearers of all the others immediately saw what he had done, and the bearers of the Three refused to use their rings as long as Sauron wore the one.
Elthir
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Post RE: Against the making of the rings
on: January 25, 2011 12:05
Remember that Elrond did not become Galadriel's son in law until over two thousand years after Sauron began seducing Eregion in the Second Age. However, according to the latest genealogy, Gil-galad was her grand nephew in any case.

Was Galadriel's grand-nephew more perceptive in the matter of Annatar than Galadriel? I tend to doubt Tolkien desired that (especially considering what JRRT says about Galadriel in The Shibboleth of Feanor for instance). And she does scorn him, and it's correct that the reason for this was not disclosed to the reader -- but it would seem that there has to be a reason.

And that's part of why I think Galadriel as ruler of Eregion might have been revised a bit. Anyway...

was Elrond and Galadriel totally against the elven smiths in forging the rings of power. I ask this because when it came time they didn't refuse to take them but gladly used them.


Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn notes that '... in Lindon Gil-galad shut out Sauron's emissaries and even Sauron himself' And Of The Rings Of Power also states that to Lindon Sauron did not come, nor was he admitted to that land -- yet, in the Waldman letter, Tolkien might be suggesting that Elrond at least rejected the general propositions or teachings of Annatar:

'... they could make Western middle-earth as beautiful as Valinor. It was really a veiled attack on the gods, an incitement to try and make a separate independent paradise. Gilgalad repulsed all such overtures, as also did Elrond.'

JRRT, letter to Milton Waldman


But as pointed out, both Elrond and Galadriel did ultimately employ the Rings in any case, and even Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn notes that when Celebrimbor perceived the designs of Sauron: 'They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time 'but they failed to find the strength.'

Yet also...

'Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron's deceits: they desired some 'power' over things as they are (which is quite distinct from art), to make their particular will to preservation effective: to arrest change, and keep things always fresh and fair. The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change; and the Elves did not desire to dominate other wills, nor to usurp all the world to their particular pleasure.'

JRRT, letter 181, probably early 1956


Important distinction in my opinion: power in some measure (controlling the effects of time), but not to dominate other wills. There was some good in wielding the Three, and this arguably helped keep certain Eldar in Middle-earth as well.

There was an aspect of falling to power here, but also keep in mind that Galadriel passed the test and allowed her Nenya-preserved realm to be open to time's effect. Elrond speaks to the good that could be achieved with the Rings (in The Council of Elrond for instance), but Glorfindel also speaks for him and the Eldar in general -- when Elrond reveals his belief that if the One is gone the Three will fail, Glorfindel adds:

'Yet all the Elves are willing to endure this chance,' said Glorfindel, 'if by it the power of Sauron may be broken, and the fear of his dominion be taken away forever.'


[Edited on 26/1/2011 by Elthir]
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