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Cressida
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 13, 2011 10:34
I'd like to hear the context for that comment as well. It seems that it could mean "as is typical for his kind" rather than "as compared to most of his kind."
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 13, 2011 01:15
I might have a look myself, when (and if) I can find the time; but in the meantime here's the omitted passage from The Children of Hurin (the somewhat recently published one volume book), which can be found in the Narn in Unfinished Tales.

The omitted passage is between [] (...) []

'(...) gold-worm of Anband!'

[] 'But in truth this helm had not been made for men, but for Azaghal Lord of Belegost, he who was slain by Glaurung in the Year of Lamentation. It was given by Azaghal to Maedros, as guerdon for the saving of his life and treasure, when Azaghal was waylaid by Orcs upon the Dwarf-road in East Beleriand. Maedhros afterwards sent it as a gift to Fingon, with whom he often exchanged tokens of friendship, remembering how Fingon had driven Glaurung back to Angband. But in all Hithlum no head and shoulders were found stout enough to bear the dwarf-helm with ease, save those of Hador and his son Galdor. Fingon therefore gave it to Hador, when he received the lordship of Dor-lomin. By ill-fortune Galdor did not wear it when he defended Eithel Sirion, for the assault was sudden, and he ran bareheaded, and an orc-arrow pierced his eye. [] But Hurin did not wear the Dragon-helm with ease, and in any case he would not use it, for he said: 'I would rather look on my foes with my true face. (...)'

Incidentally, in the Quenta Silmarillion of the mid to later 1930s, we rather have: 'But Hurin wore it not, in reverence of his father, lest it should suffer hurt or be lost, so greatly did he treasure the heirloom of Gumlin.'
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 23, 2011 07:34
I've been thinking about possible ‘massive’ physiques in M-E. I thought some background on muscles might come in handy here, so …

Skeletal muscles (the ones attached to bones) have three kinds of fibres in them, suited to different purposes, and which work together in various ways depending on what we need to do with them. Their efficiency grows and diminishes over time depending on what habitual demands we make on them. Exercise and working out are ways of manipulating this. Only one of these types can develop big muscles.

The fibres are:
1: Slow-twitch red fibres: They have lots of blood-vessels, fast recovery and good endurance. Capable of sustained effort.

2: Fast-twitch red fibres: Also have a good blood-supply and similar qualities, but are slightly less efficient in endurance and recovery.

3: Fast-twitch white fibres: These have a low blood-supply but store lots of energy (glycogen)and can release it very suddenly, but not continuously. They tire quickly and recover slowly. These are the ‘body-building’ muscles that increase in size with weight training.

The other interesting thing about Fast-twitch whites is that cardio-vascular and endurance training regimes can, over time, cause them to change into Fast-twitch reds. I’m always astonished at the way the human (and presumably elf) body is organised. So …

…we should have a few clues here re elven physiques, depending on their activities. I’d guess that some will be more muscular than others but not what we’d call ‘massive’. The modern body-builder’s physique is rather artificial I think.

I think elves are very ‘zen’ in the way they balance their bodies, and the way they focus and release energy. Think martial arts here. Hope this helps.

Meanwhile I'm working on a theory (oh no, not one of Cirdaneth's theories!) about heights.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 25, 2011 05:46
Many of the most highly regarded elves were weapon makers and metalsmiths like Feanor or the Gwaith-I-Mirdain. I'd expect them, like our own Blacksmiths to be muscular and husky as well as being tall
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 26, 2011 02:57
Not that you said so, but I don't imagine Feanor as a blacksmith 'by trade' in any case, nor necessarily all the Jewel-smiths (the Mirdain). And again, not that you said otherwise in general terms of course, but sometimes the expected, or assumed, might not turn out to be the case: at another forum someone posted: 'I'm assuming that a scholar would be less bulky/muscular than, say, a warrior.'

To which I responded: while not about relative bulkiness, Tolkien had this to say about the loremasters in general:

'Nor were the 'loremasters' a separate guild of gentle scribes, soon burned by the Orcs of Angband upon piles of books. They were mostly even as Feanor, the greatest, kings, princes and warriors, such as the valiant captains of Gondolin, or Finrod of Nargothrond and Arothir his kinsman and steward.'

JRRT, note 23 The Shibboleth of Feanor


Tolkien gave us a bit of a 'sweeping,' or very general description of the Noldor and Sindar with...

'In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.'

JRRT Quendi And Eldar


lithe: 'bending readily; pliant; limber; supple; flexible: the lithe body of a ballerina.' One dictionary gave 'slender' as a 'related word', another included a secondary meaning 'athletically slim' -- but not that JRRT himself necessarily meant this.


I don't know, so far I tend toward: generally athletic and muscular (not in the bulky sense) but still slim and flexible.


Edit: I wondered if other instances of 'lithe' from JRRT could possibly be illuminating here; and at the moment all I can think of is, from Quendi And Eldar note 17...

Lenwe is the form in which his name was remembered in Noldorin histories. His name was probably *Denwego, Nandorin Denweg. His son was the Nandorin chieftain Denethor. These names probably meant 'lithe-and-active' and 'lithe-and-lank', from *dene- 'thin and strong, pliant, lithe', and *thara- 'tall (or long) and slender.'


Well... if that somehow helps anyway



[Edited on 26/3/2011 by Elthir]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 26, 2011 08:12
Thanks Elthir. I've just watched Oxford University win the annual boat-race against Cambridge and immediately realised that a strong lithe elf must look very like these young men. Superb upper-body strength, but nothing massive. Great overall fitness and endurance. Definitely athletic. Definitely scholars.
El-Tazrín
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 27, 2011 02:53
Think dancer physique we're strong but we don't look it I often get told I'm alot stronger than I look Someone may have already said this before though so if they have sorry!
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 27, 2011 04:12
Exactly what I was getting at El-Tazrin. Thank you.
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 27, 2011 05:23
Elthir wrote: I wondered if other instances of 'lithe' from JRRT could possibly be illuminating here; and at the moment all I can think of is, from Quendi And Eldar note 17...


Well Elthir, one would think you could have remembered that you posted this in the same thread...

'Indeed the Gondothlim were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for Melko, but small were they and slender and very lithe.'

JRRT, The Fall of Gondolin, The Book of Lost Tales


Ahem.

Just to remind myself!
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 28, 2011 05:35
Don't worry, Elthir! It can happen to anyone.

Meanwhile I'm trying a bit of 'lateral thinking' on comparative heights and trying to get inside Tolkien's head. (very risky I know). You may need to send out a search party.

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