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Cenor
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Post Elven Heights
on: August 12, 2015 02:30
So I am writing a fanfiction that involves Maedhros the Tall...and I was wondering how Tall is measured by First Age Elves.

So from a few ponderings of my own I figured he would be around 8'

Is that too tall?

I do know that Galadriel, tallest among Elven Maids, was 6' 4"

But I believe Thingol and Turgon were the tallest of elves which would put them in my mind at close to 9' or 10'.

Are my figures to "out of this world"? Am I thinking their heights as too tall?

Would love to hear other Council Member's opinions on Elven Heights

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Gandolorin
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on: August 12, 2015 05:30
If I remember correctly Thingol was the tallest of all. Elendil was called "The Tall", guesses that I know being around 2 meters 70 Centimeters. That would be 106.3 inches, or 8 feet 10.3 inches.
The tallest confirmed human was Robert Wadlow, reached 8 ft 11.1 in (2.72 m) in height and weighed 439 lb (199 kg) at his death at age 22 on July 15, 1940. So if Thingol was (much) taller, we are definitely getting into 9+ foot territory (have fun in our apartment!)
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Elthir
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on: August 12, 2015 06:21
There are a few late statements of interest here: in '1968 or later', in Of Dwarves And Men, Tolkien wrote:

'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'


And according to text published in Unfinished Tales, Elendil appears to have been nearly 8 feet tall. That said, another late description reads:

'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'

JRRT, late manuscript, The Lord of the Rings, A Reader's Companion


And concerning Aragorn, Elendil, Isildur and Boromir (seemingly from the same collection of texts as the quote concerning the Quendi and the Eldar):

'Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man…, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4).'

JRRT, late manuscript, courtesy of Hammond and Scull, The Lord of the Rings, Reader's Companion


I'm not sure if it's possible to know which texts are later than others here, and there are more descriptions to consider in any case, but anyway for myself I think 8 feet is too tall for even the mighty Maedhros.

[Edited on 08/12/2015 by Elthir]
Elthir
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on: August 18, 2015 04:29
Gandolorin said: If I remember correctly Thingol was the tallest of all. Elendil was called "The Tall", guesses that I know being around 2 meters 70 Centimeters. That would be 106.3 inches, or 8 feet 10.3 inches. (...) So if Thingol was (much) taller, we are definitely getting into 9+ foot territory (have fun in our apartment!)


While Tolkien leaves a little wiggle room in the Unfinished Tales description, I think we can be fairly certain Elendil is under 8 feet according to both late passages.

In Numenorean Linear Measures Elendil was said to be "more than man-high by nearly half a ranga". A ranga being 38 inches [according to the text] should mean half a ranga is 19 inches, and according to the measurement of the Dunedain man high is 6 feet 4 inches.

Thus in my opinion Elendil being nearly half a ranga taller than man-high puts him, at the tall end, at 7 feet 10 inches [as 7 feet 11 inches would be a full half a ranga higher]. And as "nearly" could be as much as two inches in my opinion, possibly 7 feet 9 inches as well.


And then again, Elendil and Isildur are said in another late text to be 7 feet tall!

__________

Some questions arise, to my mind:

1) Do the first two citations above embody the same conception for the Elves? And similarly, does the second citation about Elendil embody the same conception as that giving his height in NLM?

It seems a bit strange to me that if Tolkien was thinking of Elendil as tall as 7 foot 10 or 11 inches [which would be closer to 8 feet not 7], that he would, in another text, merely refer to him as 7 feet tall, even if he was just generalizing a bit.

2) Do the references to Thingol being the tallest of all the Children of Iluvatar mean to include characters who would not be born until after Thingol's death?

In other words, for example: in notes to the updated long prose Fall of Gondolin [early 1950s, Unfinished Tales] Tolkien wrote that Turgon was tallest save for Thingol. Years later he wrote that Argon was taller than his brother Turgon however. But the former statement is still true when Tuor arrives in Gondolin, which again was the text in which Turgon was said to be tallest of all except Thingol, as Argon was dead by this time.

Or is it rather that, with the introduction of Argon being taller than Turgon [see The Shibboleth of Feanor, 1968 or later], Tolkien had merely forgotten what he had written so many years earlier, in a note to a story he had never finished.

While I agree it seems like Tolkien means that Thingol was the tallest person ever, of any person in any age, is there text that necessarily makes this meaning certain?

I'm asking as I'm not really sure

And if there is no text for further consideration about this, is it necessarily the meaning that Thingol was taller than everyone in every age? Or was he the tallest being according to the tales of the First Age?

Granted it's easy to think the First Age might produce the tallest folk, but the Numenoreans, at least for a time, seemed to become more and more like Elves, even with respect to their great stature. Did a few eclipse even the great Elves of earlier days, before the Numenoreans in general diminished after the Fall?

Well, I thought I would toss in the possibility, since I must admit I usually think in these terms as well: that whatever height Elendil is, Thingol, Argon, Turgon, must have been taller.

But now I'm questioning that approach a bit, especially given the height of Elendil in NLM, for instance.

[Edited on 08/18/2015 by Elthir]
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on: August 19, 2015 09:47
It is quite a common practice in myths to exaggerate the physical prowess of those involved, whether in dimension, strength or some other ability. It should not be surprising or worrisome that a certain protagonist has some associated superlative which is in conflict with those of some other hero/enemy. I spend far too much time on the internet trying to explain this to those who take such reports as literal truth. So it goes.
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Elthir
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on: August 20, 2015 11:22
Christopher Tolkien has commented that his father was given to "rhetorical superlatives", such as "the oldest living thing" for example.

That said, Tolkien never describes both Thingol and Elendil, or anyone else and Thingol (that I recall), as the tallest of all the Children of Iluvatar. And the matter of Argon versus Turgon can easily be an external matter (Tolkien changing his mind years later, or forgetting what he had written years before in a note), rather than a "true conflict" of internal superlatives.

Anyway, I wouldn't say I find it worrisome or surprising in general, when I find seemingly conflicting superlatives (most beautiful, most powerful, eldest), but I would say that Tolkien sometimes appears to be concerned with certain details as well, details beyond general or poetic description I mean.

How many ancient northern myths tell you, with actual and fairly specific numbers, how tall the Elves are for instance? I'm certainly no expert, but according to CS Lewis in The Discarded Image, if I recall correctly, it appears that ancient writers were not all that concerned about being specific here, or with being necessarily consistent about this matter.

An extra dimension here might be the wealth of posthumously published texts, making it somewhat murky with respect to exactly what we might have in any final, author published legendarium. No doubt Tolkien's penchant for this sort of thing would still shine, but it's a matter worth noting, I think.

If we were to cite or employ only that which Tolkien himself published about Elendil the Tall, or his Elves in general, we would be dealing with much less evidence. How tall are the Quendi, in general, given what JRRT published?

They are tall.

And Galadriel is no less tall that Celeborn. And Elendil is seemingly tall given his nickname. And Aragorn was the tallest of the Fellowship, and seemingly as tall as the Sea-kings of old, at his crowning. That doesn't prentend to be everything in that context, but it also makes me wonder in what context Tolkien was going to introduce his more specific descriptions, if so...

... perhaps in a text called "The Musings of Pengolodh"

[Edited on 08/21/2015 by Elthir]
Gandolorin
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on: August 21, 2015 03:27
JRRT once (at least) described himself a being a natural niggler (wasting time on secondary, tertiary ... details far in excess of their importance), so I'm guessing that even he had been given Elros's lifespan (500 years!), he might have had to rush getting the Silmarillion ready for publication at the end (That's one thing JRRT and Sir PJ have in common!). And how many of us would be around in 2392 to read the final product? Image
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Evil~Shieldmaiden
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on: August 21, 2015 04:14
I believe that Galadriel is the only character for whom a specific height was given. We do know that the Noldor/other dark-haired branches were the tallest of the elven races over all: followed by the Sindar/Teleri and then the Vanyar. As for actual heights .... who knows.

As for myself, I tend to think of Thingol as 8' tall, followed by Turgon at 7'9" and Maedhros at 7'6". Isildur I would put at 7'. As for the races I would put the Noldor/dark-haired elves at 6'9" to 7'3"; the Sindar/Teleri at 6'6" to 7' and the Vanyar at 6'3 to 6'8". These are, of course, only guidelines that I have set for myself to give some context to heights in general with regard to the elven race. I did find an interesting piece of artwork a few years ago with the sons of Fëanor shown against a height scale which I am posting for the fun of it.

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Gandolorin
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on: August 21, 2015 04:44
There is the bit about the Hobbits, averaging 3'6", being called "Halflings" because they were half as tall as the exiles from Númenor. That would make those exiles 7' tall on average, Elendil quite a bit above that, and I obstinately stick to my opinion that I have read that Thingol was the tallest of all the children of Ilúvatar.
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Elweth
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on: August 21, 2015 12:22
Evil~Shieldmaiden said:I believe that Galadriel is the only character for whom a specific height was given. We do know that the Noldor/other dark-haired branches were the tallest of the elven races over all: followed by the Sindar/Teleri and then the Vanyar. As for actual heights .... who knows.

As for myself, I tend to think of Thingol as 8' tall, followed by Turgon at 7'9" and Maedhros at 7'6". Isildur I would put at 7'. As for the races I would put the Noldor/dark-haired elves at 6'9" to 7'3"; the Sindar/Teleri at 6'6" to 7' and the Vanyar at 6'3 to 6'8". These are, of course, only guidelines that I have set for myself to give some context to heights in general with regard to the elven race. I did find an interesting piece of artwork a few years ago with the sons of Fëanor shown against a height scale which I am posting for the fun of it.

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Thank you so much for posting this! So very helpful as a reference piece. *hugs*

This might be a bit off topic, but I grew up with a guy who was 6' 6". He finally stopped growing at a lanky 6' 7", I think. I always thought he looked a lot like one of the Vanyar, as tall as he is/was. I'm about 4' 10" (roughly the size of an average Dwarf, I believe) and the height difference helped me see what life would have been like from the Dwarves' or the Hobbits' perspective(s), always straining to look up at the Big(ger) Folk, and how intimidating someone with Elven height can really be.
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Elthir
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on: August 21, 2015 10:45
Evil~Shieldmaiden said: I believe that Galadriel is the only character for whom a specific height was given.


But in the quotes I provided above, specific heights are given for Elendil (perhaps two different versions), as well as for Isildur, Aragorn, and Boromir. At least "fairly" specific anyway, unless you mean the heights are not exact, given that Tolkien says Aragorn was "at least" 6 foot 6, for example?

We do know that the Noldor/other dark-haired branches were the tallest of the elven races over all: followed by the Sindar/Teleri and then the Vanyar. As for actual heights .... who knows.


We have a late citation that states that although Celeborn was considered tall among the Teleri (his name meant "Silver-tall" even), the Teleri themselves were generally "somewhat" less in build and stature than the Noldor.

But I don't recall anything concerning the Vanyar for comparison. I guess one could interpret their lack of mention to mean that they are the least tall of all three clans, but in my opinion I don't think we can certainly say so.

This statement about the Teleri at least seems to agree with the description in Of Dwarves And Men, where the Eldar were said to be normally around seven feet, especially the Noldor. In other words, if the Noldor "especially", then they would seem to reach about 7 feet more normally than the Teleri and the Vanyar.

But that said, is that statement meant to agree with another late statement (cited above in the thread), where Tolkien notes a height of "no less" than 6 foot 6 for full grown Eldarin men, and then adds that "some" of the great kings and leaders were taller?

If only "some" kings and leaders are taller than 6 foot 6, how can the normal height of the Eldar, especially the Noldor, be about 7 feet? In other words, if the latter is true, then I would think very many Elves, rather than "some" leaders and kings, would be taller than 6 foot 6.

Different conceptions? Or is Tolkien expressing himself a bit awkwardly here?

Gandolorin wrote: There is the bit about the Hobbits, averaging 3'6", being called "Halflings" because they were half as tall as the exiles from Númenor. That would make those exiles 7' tall on average, Elendil quite a bit above that,...


Right, and there are quotes that say exactly that about the Numenoreans and the Hobbits -- at the time "Halflings" was coined at least. And there are two late citations concerning Elendil, one where he is said to be quite a bit above that, as you say (at 7 foot 10-ish), another one where he and his son Isildur are said to be 7 feet tall however.


"... and I obstinately stick to my opinion that I have read that Thingol was the tallest of all the children of Ilúvatar.


Yes it's stated in a Silmarillion text: possibly in The Annals of Aman if not Quenta Silmarillon itself, but anyway it was employed by Christopher Tolkien for the constructed Silmarillion of 1977. And it's suggested again in a note to the updated Fall of Gondolin (early 1950s), where Turgon is the tallest of the Children of Iluvatar, save Thingol.

Argon became tallest of his brothers (thus taller than Turgon), in a text dated 1968 or later, so as I say, who knows if JRRT had even remembered what he had said about Turgon in the early 1950s, possibly as much as 15 years earlier!

Can I remember some detail that I wrote 15 years ago? Maybe... maybe not!



[Edited on 08/22/2015 by Elthir]
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