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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post A confession about the first two chapters of The Silmarillion
on: March 06, 2016 04:39
Confession; I have to admit that for several years after I purchased The Silmarillion I had a rough time getting through the first Chapters 'Ainulindale' and Valaquenta and I used to skip them and start reading at the 'Quenta Silmarillion.'
It wasn't until i became a books moderator here, more than 25 years after I bought the book, that I found myself able to accept The Musical theme creation myth.
I found the idea of a musical jam session to be a silly creation myth and I also felt that Melkor was a parallel to the devil but I kept picturing him as an Iggy Pop or Johnny Rotten type angel.
Did anyone else see the Melkor/Johnny Rotten-Satan parallel or have trouble with that method of creation?




[Edited on 03/06/2016 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Lindarielwen
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on: March 06, 2016 10:16
I had no clue what this *music* was that Tolkien was talking about the first time I read the book. Then I started to think of a church choir and how the voices blended.

For Melkor, I was reminded of the way an orchestra sounds when it is warming up. You can hear the instruments but they sound all out of tune.
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Gandolorin
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on: March 07, 2016 04:45
Though I do not remember when I first read The Silmarillion (my paperback copies of TH, Sil, UT, and BoLT 1 and 2 are all from 1985/86, LoTR a tad earlier), I think it's a safe bet that my reaction to the Ainulindalë was "Old Testament!" Now, I would definitely think that a music - as Linda states, a choir - is the only viable way for the Ainur to create something together. Just as a contrast, a debate with everyone yakking away simultaneously - nah, don't even want to think about it (some of our talk shows degenerate to that at times - yuck!!!). I was going to question your use of "musical jam session", but then, after Melkor got uppity, the result might resemble free jazz, or twelve-tone music, or ...
Since the 1980s are a period of music I consider to be a barren desert (later disco, early rap, punk, techno, synthesizer pop ...) I have few musical memories of it (there was some really good German stuff, but it was not entirely mainstream here). I would consider any artists of that era comparing themselves to any JRRT characters - and especially the baddies - as hopelessly arrogant wimps.
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Lord_Sauron
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on: March 07, 2016 03:20
I somehow recall you saying once PBHF that when you first read LotR or the Hobbit (I can't remember which) you skipped reading the poems and songs in the books.

I was christened as a Catholic so I went to a Catholic Primary school where we had to learn about the creation mythology. I think I was around 20 when i first read the Silmarillion and it seemed to me that in JRRT's world that Melkor was based on the devil.
However saying that you could also say that Ulmo could be based on Poseidon, Manwe could be Zeus and either Melkor or Mandos could be Hades.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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on: March 08, 2016 03:58
Yes that was my other crutch. No-one, in my crowd of long-hairs, would lapse into poetry or songs, unless at a band practice. I guess that I did not have the maturity back then to be able to appreciate the poems scattered through the books.
(I'm a big reader of SF and you just do not find a lot of poetry in that genre.)
I am past that as I now associate the poetry with the character and the setting and it seems just fine.
After all, Japanese samurai were not considered proper warriors if the were not also accomplished at the lighter arts, such as poetry.





[Edited on 03/11/2016 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Gandolorin
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on: March 08, 2016 04:11
A big difference to the Old Testament - as far as my memory of it goes, and I got beyond the Pentateuch, but that's been a while ago - is that JRRT's "archangels" are the ones actually creating the physical world. In that sense, especially Melkor is totally different from Satan, though the bit with the snake in Eden is hinted at as having happened to Men in the east. And as for the term "Lucifer", meaning "shining one, light bearer" as per one tradition - though it may refer to the time before his fall - reminds me rather of Sauron in his guise of Annatar, and not the utterly nihilistic Melkor.

'Allo, 'allo, our mod got his post in while I was grinding away at mine.

I freely confess that for perhaps the first - ah - five? six? I guess I forget - readings of LoTR, I also invariably skipped the poems. Poetry has become something of a small niche nowadays, singing too.

One thing that just popped into my mind is that our habit of reading - sitting in a comfortable chair, or lying on a couch or even in bed (that's me, for certain!) and silently scanning the pages, is a very modern thing. Simply because literacy only started to spread to the general population after Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press (and he and Martin Luther were responsible for breaking the stranglehold Latin had on writing), making reading material massively more accessible. An additional boost occurred when newspapers of all sorts became widespread (and I believe we are talking late 19th century for this phenomenon). For eons, what was written would have to have been read out loud to the huge illiterate masses. Just to name two massively influential historical persons who were likely to have been illiterate: Charlemagne and Muḥammad.

[Edited on 03/08/2016 by Gandolorin]
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tarcolan
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on: March 08, 2016 04:49
Indeed Gando, and more than that. Stories were passed down orally often as song or at least in a rhyming form. Woe betide any who made changes to the words. Even today among folk singers there are certain songs which are forbidden until you have a bit of living under your belt. Poems are meant to be heard, as a lot of what they are is in the sound as much as the meanings of words.

Lindarielwen, there was a good discussion about the music here-
What Was The Music?

[Edited on 03/08/2016 by tarcolan]
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Gandolorin
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on: March 09, 2016 04:33
Add to that the third book of HoME, "The Lays Of Beleriand", or (I know you saw this coming! ) Beowulf, the whole minstrel tradition across pretty much all of Europe (though we only have fairly certain knowledge of this for times a bit after the bee-wolf) and probably much of the rest of the world. I even seem to remember that some - linguists? - have guessed that we started singing (together) before we started talking - longer sentences, is my guess about their guess. And even to this day, when we get together in our self-chosen tribes (look out, another blindingly obvious example incoming!) like football fans ...
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Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: March 12, 2016 11:09
I think the Ainulindalë is one of the most incredibly beautiful things I have ever read. I know a lot of people who wanted to read the Silmarillion but gave up after failing to get through the first two chapters, and I guess it is off putting if you expect more LOTR and instead you get a creation myth. For my self, it is worth reading multiple times to try to understand the many layers and just marvel at the glorious imagery. It is like prose poetry. There are some quotes that just pulled at my heart like
"So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the world before it began." pg.16, 1977 edition.


Also, there are some striking concepts that I am still thinking about, like how the rebellious things Melkor did still worked to serve Eru's plan.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Ringilswrath
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on: March 12, 2016 02:45
When I first read the Silmarillion, I absolutely loved the Music as the creation myth. It is still one of my favorite parts of any book by anybody. Somehow, for me, the notion of the Music of the Ainur resonated with me and I was utterly captivated by it. In fact, I have picked up the Silmarillion just to read those sections. I agree with Elfeawen above; it is like prose poetry. I've read it over the phone to friends as an example of the amazing writing of JRRT. I'm not sure they understood it, or that they cared for the Music as creation myth, but they appreciated the language.
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Neenime
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on: March 31, 2016 08:06
What interesting and varies reactions!

My confession is that The Silmarillion sat in my bookcase for twenty years before I could finish it. There were too many people and places to keep track of. Only when I let go of trying to recall them all and enjoyed each story on its own, was I able to finish reading that rich piece of work.

As for the Ainulindalë,I was charmed and intrigued by it immediately. Perhaps because I love symphonic music and have sung in choirs , I could easily relate to the concept of multiple harmonies and one voice that stood out brashly from the rest.

In later years, when I read more analysis of Tolkien, the idea of co - creation really took hold, so I loved those passages even more. It is now my favourite to share with friends on Tolkien Reading Day.
“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
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