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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Ainulindale and Valaquenta - questions.
on: March 06, 2016 08:05
1)We now have Iluvatar, and the created Ainur, all with varying degrees of power and ability. Is this seen by you to be a pantheon, or a single god and his lieutenants?

2)Why Melkor? Is necessary to have evil so that good can exist? What is his motivation? is it greed or jealously or resentment? What attracts his followers to him?

Gandolorin
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on: March 07, 2016 05:06
1. As it is Old Testament, and probably meant to be seen as such by JRRT, a single god and his archangels, and angels. But then, JRRT leaves room for a belief in pantheons to arise among Men in Arda. And never mind the opinion of the strict monotheists, the Jews and Muslims, about all of the Orthodox / Catholic saints (and totally ignore the Greek-inspired speculation about the trinity!) that Christianity is closet polytheism (and there is what even the Protestants call Mariolatry - sigh)

2. This is the problem of Theodicy. The most brilliant theologians of all times and all religions have written huge libraries about this topic, and as far as I can see, all have failed (unless you accept the Manichean view ...)

[Edited on 03/07/2016 by Gandolorin]
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Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: March 09, 2016 04:00
1. I think Tolkien’s cosmology is not polytheistic. Iluvatar is Eru, the One. The Ainur are born from the thought of Eru. Hence they were once One, and I think they are still part of Eru in a way. The Ainur are lesser, derived beings. I do not think they could be considered “gods” equal to Eru.

2. I don’t think evil is necessary, but maybe it is just very likely? As in, if something can happen, it will, and evil had a good probability of being introduced into the universe.

I don’t think evil was part of Eru’s vision. After Melkor tried to have his own way, the world is called Arda Marred. I don’t think that it could be considered marred unless that was not how Eru intended things to be.

But Melkor was of Eru too. How can part of Eru be evil, or become evil? Could Eru contain any evil before Melkor fell? I think not. The nature of evil it seems, is selfishness and disharmony. Melkor fell “from splendour through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself, a spirit wasteful and pitiless,” Tolkien says in the Valaquenta. Arrogance blinds us to wisdom greater than our own, causing us to lose our way. Selfishness causes us to believe our own ideas and desires are more important than anyone else’s. Unable to see, we cause disharmony. Put simply, evil is not being in harmony with the vision of Eru.

It seems Melkor’s first wrong was impatience with Eru. Rather than trusting that Eru would act when the time was right, Melkor wanted to get things started and traveled into the Void alone, seeking the Fire so that he could begin creation on his own. Ambition must have been a flaw he soon developed, for him to think he, a single Ainu, could create on his own. The time he spent alone in the Void first began to separate him from his brethren and he began to be out of harmony with them. It seems Melkor was not content with serving the vision, and wanted to be his own master. He could never be as great as Eru, but he thought that having others call him lord made him more than he was. Tolkien says in “Of the Enemies” that “he began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended with fire and wrath into a great burning, into Darkness.”

I think that Melkor was more at risk because he was granted greater power than the other Ainur, and he overestimated his own understanding.


I think many of Morgoth’s followers did not realize how wrong their motivations were in the beginning, that their reasons were selfish. At first, maybe they only wanted more independence to shape the world as they wished. This put them at disharmony, but they probably felt that harmony was too rigid and oppressive. Some of them probably just wanted more power and glory. Some of the wilder spirits like Ossë, who Morgoth permitted to rage unrestrained across the oceans were just giving in to the least wise, elemental part of their nature.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Ringilswrath
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on: March 12, 2016 02:37
1.) I've usually read it as Iluvatar and his Lieutenants, not as a pantheon with Iluvatar at the head of it, although I remember thinking during my first reading years ago thinking in terms of Iluvatar having created a pantheon of gods, but now I read one God and the host God created.

2.) Why Melkor indeed? I am trying to frame my thinking about this. I am probably too tired to do so now, but I shall try. Melkor is evil because he chose to be, with his pride in his greater power governing his actions and the freewill granted to the Ainur allowing Melkor to act upon his desires. I think it is pride that turns his being to Darkness. As for those that follow him, something about him appealed to them, for why do any chose to follow evil? Because somehow the followers identify with Melkor perhaps.
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