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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Chapter Questions QS2 - Of Aule and Yavanna
on: March 23, 2016 04:41
1) This has a lot to do with my Chapter quote for this chapter.
It seems pretty clear , in this chapter, that the world was created for the use of the Children. yet, when Yavanna whines a bit about her precious trees She gets a new race of 'shepherds' for the trees. Normally the duty of shepherds involves both herding and protection, so isn't what could happen, when any of the Children needs some lumber, going against the original plan?

2) We already have Melkor as an enemy. By creating the shepherds (ents) hasn't a potential new enemy , although with a tighter focus, been created? As Aule says; "Nevertheless, they will have need of wood".

3) How is it that Aule was rebuked for creating the Dwarves, but there was not much of a fuss about creating another intelligent race?
BelleBayard
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on: March 23, 2016 10:19
Not always a lot of logic in what "gods" do, which is really what the Valar are, even with Eru as the head honcho. There may have a been a certain amount of what was considered culling among the trees, for lumbar. Not cutting down willy-nilly, only what was strictly needed. The only ones who wastefully cut down trees were the corrupted beings - Orcs. From what I can see, Elves didn't cut trees... they built their homes either IN the trees OR they built them from stone (though that wasn't as common). Why Aule was rebuked when Yavanna was not is, if you'll forgive me, a moot point (oy, what a word play, sorry). There were not as many Ents as there were Dwarves and had a totally different focus. Ah well... I'm not sure we will ever be able to answer that particular question, given only the Professor would know the answer. All else is truly speculation.
The Lady Idril
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on: March 25, 2016 03:36
I agree with BelleBayard about the fact that Ents were mostly around to prevent wasteful destroying of trees and not necessarily all cutting down of trees. Treebeard even confesses that HE gets rid of trees: "Still, we do what we can. We keep off strangers and the foolhardy; and we train and we teach, we walk and we weed." One can only assume that by "weed" he means uprooting the trees and destroying them.

Generally I think that Yavanna just wanted to prevent creatures (such as Orcs and Uruk-hai) from misusing wood with the understanding that other creatures Dwarves and Men in particular) need moderate amounts of wood.
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Gandolorin
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on: March 25, 2016 06:25
"Normally the duty of shepherds involves both herding and protection ...", yes, PBHF, until the same shepherds (who shear their sheep at any rate) sell some of their herd of butcher them themselves, for food. So the wanton destruction, or destruction by an enemy, is what shepherds guard against.

And even though Melkor is the Enemy, all of Eru's children have issues with each other, even between clans of their own kind. But the focus, main enemy of both Ents and Dwarves are the creatures of Melkor, so there are additional troops (or troop commanders) swelling the ranks of those arrayed against the Enemy.
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Evil~Shieldmaiden
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on: March 26, 2016 02:24
How is it that Aulë was rebuked for creating the Dwarves, but there was not much of a fuss about creating another intelligent race?
The fact that Eru did not interfere in the process would seem to indicate He did not, necessarily, disapprove of their creation and, in fact, when Aulë attempts to destroy them, He stops him from doing so. I've always been under the impression that Aulë was rebuked because he created the dwarves in secret from the other Valar, even his spouse Yavanna, as opposed to because he created a new race. I mean if Eru knows all, as would seem to be the case, Aulë's desires and impatience would not have been hidden from Him from the beginning.

As for the Ents, they were part of the song of Yavanna and Eru, and He anticipated that they would be needed in the fight against Melkor's minions so I don't see the issue.
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Gandolorin
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on: March 27, 2016 02:41
Evil~Shieldmaiden said:... As for the Ents, they were part of the song of Yavanna and Eru, and He anticipated that they would be needed in the fight against Melkor's minions so I don't see the issue.

Eru did not participate in the Song(s) of the Ainur. Manwë quotes Eru to Yavanna, but starting with "But dost thou not now remember, Kementári, that thy thought sang not always alone?" he is adressing Yavanna directly again and no longer quoting Eru.

P.S. Regarding my comment about shepherds above, in the sense that we understand the term, the Ents were shepherds in a more limited sense; they "restricted" their intrusive actions to "... and we weed." Whatever that means (in the chapter "Treebeard" of TTT).

[Edited on 03/27/2016 by Gandolorin]
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Neenime
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on: April 04, 2016 07:45
I agree with the idea that the shepherds would guard against wasteful use of trees. Tolkien developed a world that includes death and limitations, happiness and sadness, so I think there would be room for appropriate harvesting of trees. He was, however, distressed by uncontrolled spread of mechanical and industrial forces, so shepherds as stewards makes sense to me, particularly to limit the materialism of Dwarves ( assuming he foresaw that beyond their period of dormancy).

I also agree that Yavanna was granted tree shepherds because she recognized the limits of her position and did not go behind the backs of Manwë or Ilúvatar. It fits with a theme of ill coming of people overstepping their bounds. Denethor, Saruman, Pippin and the palantir come to mind. Those who risk much but within what they are permitted (Hobbits, Aragorn, Gandalf, Sam, Frodo) come to good ends.
“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
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